#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-06-07

qi-commitsXiangfu Liu: [new package] Rubén Berenguel's ports http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/cb4bdc400:43
qi-commitsXiangfu Liu: [imgv] MKAE_VARS is better http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f2346b600:43
zeararticle about nn on polish edition of linuxnews: http://linuxnews.pl/komputer-w-pelni-open-source/04:39
zearthere's a lot of hatred in the comments, as expected ;)04:40
wolfspraulzear: can you give us some highlights?04:41
wolfspraulzear: btw, the other day you asked about growth of community and I didn't answer before you left04:42
zearthey say there are cheaper netbooks with better hardware04:42
wolfspraulso I think it's mixed04:42
wolfspraulof course I am super happy about all the support04:42
wolfspraulI mean it's scary actually04:42
wolfspraulOpenWrt, Debian, JLiMe04:42
zearand generally, blah blah, 320x240, slow cpu, no net, high price04:43
wolfspraulalso the copyleft hardware wiki keeps growing with what is important04:43
zearand they also make references to openmoko's failure ;)04:43
zearah, great to hear that04:43
wolfsprauland I do see very very respectable people join our community04:43
zearthat's good too04:43
wolfspraulMarc Zonzon, Ruben, nebajoth, Jirka, etc.04:43
wolfsprauljust look what they contribute, it'a amazing04:43
zearbtw, do all the ports need to be incorporated in the openwrt?04:43
wolfspraulof course we are working on that04:43
wolfspraul'need to be' I don't know04:44
zeari really don't like how owrt forces me to modify the makefiles to be able to compile them04:44
wolfspraulbut I think it would be cool to make them more accessible04:44
zearbut i'd like to have a standalone toolchain i can just compile apps with04:44
zearif i had something like that, i'd port all the dingux games/emulators right away04:44
larscthey don't need to be, but it's nice to have, because everybody can easyly build the package themself then04:44
wolfspraulnow we have Milkymist One coming up, a big challenge04:44
wolfspraulpeople need to get the whole FPGA thing04:44
wolfspraulhow it fits together in the long run04:44
larscand it can be part of the standard distro04:44
wolfspraulwe need to survive to make it to Ya NanoNote04:44
zearthere problem with incorporating everything into owrt is, a lot of stuff (from dingux, at least) are forks and crude hacks of the vanilla sources04:45
zearand they are one-time-only ports04:45
wolfspraulzear: so bottom line, please continue supporting us04:45
wolfspraulevery tiny bit helps04:45
zearwith no hope for updates by merging them with vanilla sources04:45
wolfspraulin return we continue to spend our last pennies to open up more :-)04:45
wolfspraulbut it's a fun ride, really04:45
wolfspraulI learn so much04:45
zeari hope it's not a financial suicide04:46
wolfspraulI mean I really do believe in the strength of free software.04:46
wolfspraulso those comments - to me all irrelevant04:46
wolfspraulthey all just compare HW specs04:46
wolfspraulso what04:46
zearyeah, but we also need the popularity04:46
wolfspraulwe have, today, 2.6.32 running04:46
zearpeople who write the articles need to understand NN is not a full feature laptop04:46
wolfspraul2.6.34 is coming to an image very soon04:46
wolfspraulthat is unbelievable04:46
zearwe should make that clear on the wiki (if we didn't do it already)04:46
wolfspraulwe have the picture on the hand now04:47
zearbecause every time i see an article it says "a mini laptop"04:47
wolfspraulat least the size proportions should be clear now04:47
zearand people expect it to run windows with crysis04:47
zearand when they hear it's a mipsel linux thing, they start to complain04:47
wolfspraulso to those guys that say it only has 32 MB ram, or lacking USB host etc. I say I am running 2.6.32 in my image today, and 2.6.34 is almost in an image (lars has it running of course)04:47
zearbecause they expected windows04:47
wolfspraulthat is innovation in this project04:47
wolfspraulnot whether we are the first to have 1ghz04:47
zeari don't want it to have 1ghz04:48
zeari want it to be the way it is now - a tiny pc with limited usage04:48
wolfspraulI think we can get a lot more out of it04:49
zeari can run a dictionary and a music player on it, and i'm very happy with that04:49
wolfspraulof course the portability will stay04:49
zearwe just need to get wikireader and i'll be in heaven )04:49
wolfspraulwe will04:49
wolfspraulthere are many good things in motion, really I think software is coming along nicely04:49
wolfspraulzear: what do you think?04:49
zearand yeah, ya really needs a way of wireless communication04:49
wolfspraulall those people that help porting apps, really good support from openwrt, 2.6.34 work04:50
zearwell,i think there is a progress with the software, but it's not a revolution04:50
zearwe need a good standalone toolchain so people can start porting stuff04:50
wolfspraulfair enough, but I think it will continue like this04:50
wolfspraulzear: I think OpenWrt can create an 'SDK' never tried it though04:50
wolfspraulis that a stand-alone toolchain?04:51
zearby a stand-alone toolchain i mean a toolchain with a set of basic libs you can put into /opt, export the PATH variable and start compiling04:51
zearwith no need for Makefile hacks ;)04:52
wolfspraulzear: can you post a comment in Polish to that site just telling them what you think of it as an owner and that they can buy from tuxbrain.com in the EU?04:52
zearjust ./configure --host=mipsel-linux --target=mipsel-linux and you're done04:52
zearyes, i posted it already04:52
wolfsprauloh, great04:52
wolfspraulthanks a lot04:52
zearthough it needs to be accepted by the mods, as i just registered04:52
wolfspraulwe should not over-promise04:52
wolfspraulmuch better to lower expectations to zero04:52
wolfspraulit's really only for people that are quite technical today, like the original theregister post said a 'dedicated vi device'04:53
zeari explained in that post that nanonote is more of a PIM/notepad/music player/dictionary than a full feature laptop04:53
larsczear: if you need makefile hacks, the makefile is broken anyway ;)04:53
wolfspraulI can stand behind that any day. it is a dedicated vi device. :-) and a good one04:53
zearand also mentioned it is binary compatible with dingoo a320, so can run all the games/emus for that platform04:53
wolfspraulzear: have you ever tried to download and build the openwrt sources?04:53
zearyes, i have it ready on my hdd04:53
larsczear: projects which use autotools should work out of the box btw.04:53
wolfspraulI see this 'SDK' option in menuconfig, not sure what it is but maybe it's what you want?04:53
zearthough i never managed to successfully build anything with it04:54
zearbecause the toolchain is didived into two different, unstandard dirs04:54
zearand ./configure can't find the libs, etc04:54
zearbtw, more and more people from the dingoo community get their nanonotes04:56
zearwe have about 8-10 people with nn in dingoo community now04:56
wolfspraulwow, happy to hear that04:56
wolfspraulcan you tell them about this IRC channel?04:56
wolfspraulalso the mailing list04:56
zearyep, though they should be already aware of that04:57
zearsome of them are already04:57
zeari mean, some of them already visit the irc04:58
zearlike darfgarf or xdpirate04:58
zearor wejp :)04:58
kyakzear: there is a thing, crosstool, from www.kegel.com/crosstool/. I've managed to create a toolchain to mipsel with it and successfully run the "hello world" on my linksys router05:32
kyakso you could try that.. to avoid hacking openwrt makefiles05:32
zearkyak, well, i can already use the dingux toolchain05:33
zearand it produces working binaries05:33
kyakisn't this what you want?05:33
zearbut i want the same set of libs that's in the owrt05:33
zeari want exactly the same thing so there are no compatibility problems and programs compiled with it are optimized for nanonote's hardware05:34
kyaki see, then you'll need to stick to openwrt anyway05:36
zearwell, it would be enough for the devs to maintain a standalone toolchain05:37
killiI ordered my NN on friday, anyone know how long order processing takes? It is still pending:)08:56
larscwhere did you order?08:57
xiangfukilli: Hi I will ask other people in sharism.cc about your order. what is your email?  we can send email when we got some result.09:07
qwebirc49195is there any way to stream music off the net to the nanonote (through usb or something)?11:29
kristianpaulERROR:HDLCompilers:26 - "../../../../cores/lm32/rtl/lm32_icache.v" line 101 unexpected token: '$clog2'12:30
emebw00t - my nanonote has shipped.12:38
xdpirate07 Jun 2010 16:37:01 Oslo Shipment Released From Customs.15:09
xdpiratefinally, we've got progress!15:09
xdpirateWhat does qi-eggs do?15:13
xdpirateqi-commits is pretty self-explainatory, but qi-eggs? =P15:14
jd823592hello, i am looking for an open netbook/laptop (like touchbook) does anyone know about the choices i have?16:02
alextybob60i have a few problems with my computer17:25
alextybob60problems written there ^^^^17:26
tuxbrain_awaymmm alex I have read well but your asking for suport for windows instalation on the copyleft hardware channel ?17:27
alextybob60this the wrong place?17:28
tuxbrainto be short yes17:29
alextybob60shall i /part?17:29
tuxbrainnot you are wellcome to stay :) but don't expecte to be helped in that matters17:30
alextybob60fair enough17:30
zedstarthat was fairly random17:32
tuxbrainzedstar: yeah , I'm so sleppy than until your message I believe I has felt sleep on the keyboard having a a bizarre "lucid dream" (lucid dream->dreams that you know you are dreaming)17:38
tuxbrainI think I better go to search a real dream at my loved bed and pillow, space bar is not so comfortable17:41
zedstartuxbrain lol17:41
DocScrutinizerwolfspraul: you pinged me20:42
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: hah, yes20:42
wolfspraulhow are you?20:42
wolfspraulwe didn't chat in a while20:42
DocScrutinizeryesterday sick, today in foul mood - but nvm20:42
DocScrutinizerquite busy with a few silly projects for N90020:43
wolfspraulwell that's nice20:43
DocScrutinizerhow's Qi, and how are you?20:43
wolfspraulthings are moving20:44
wolfspraulBen NanoNote is selling20:44
wolfspraulsoftware improving20:44
wolfspraulSAKC is slow but steady, once I have a board there I will make sure to get you one20:44
wolfspraulthe other fpga-based computer we are working on is also moving, Milkymist One20:45
wolfspraulthat's the link I wanted to send you20:45
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: we have some pretty cool documentation about the SMT process now, see http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_SMT/DIP_Process_Flow20:45
wolfsprauljust wanted to show you20:45
DocScrutinizeraah, fine :)20:46
emebwolfspraul: saw the SAKC stuff the other day. I've got something similar for beagle: http://members.cox.net/ebrombaugh1/embedded/beagle/beagle_fpga.html20:52
wolfspraulnice, beautiful work, congratulations!20:53
wolfspraulI fully share your motivation, SDR work etc.20:53
emebthanks. FPGAs don't get enough love from hobbyists20:54
wolfspraulthere are too few free software fpga projects, we have to change it20:54
emebseems a lot of OSS types rebel against the closed FPGA tools full stop.20:54
wolfspraulsome dp20:55
wolfspraulsome do20:55
wolfspraulI wouldn't spend a second of thought on that.20:55
emebDoesn't bother me in the least.20:56
wolfspraullet the proprietary silicon under them grow20:56
wolfspraulemeb: do you know the Milkymist project?20:56
emebGot it up on the browser as we speak.20:56
wolfspraulit's a GPL licensed SoC around a LatticeMico32 core20:56
emebHmm - text says Spartan6?20:57
wolfspraulemeb: also the Elphel cameras, do you know those? used for Google book scanning and street view20:57
emebWas looking at the Elphel stuff the other day.20:58
wolfspraulbut the important thing is all code in the FPGA is GPL licensed, which is the stuff that talks to the CMOS/CCD sensor20:58
emebThat's handy.20:58
wolfspraulwe are trying to combine all this free tech into consumer products - copyleft hardware20:58
wolfspraulso far so good, moving :-)20:58
wolfspraulstill alive20:58
emeblow-end FPGAs are cheap enough ($10 range) that they're quite practical for small projects20:58
wolfspraulpeople are lining up 2 blocks for the iPad, we sell one by one, but it's fun20:58
emebI was interested that you've got such a wide parallel link between MCU <> FPGA on SAKC.20:59
emebMust help with fast comms between21:00
emebthe two21:00
wolfspraulhe, I don't even know the details about that21:00
emebAh - HW details not your bailiwick?21:00
wolfspraulI try to keep the business running, so as soon as there is someone I trust I 'outsource' everything to that person.21:00
wolfspraulplus I'm an ex-software guy21:01
wolfspraulbut on hardware, I consult with people like DocScrutinizer, or in the case of SAKC it's Carlos Camargo21:01
wolfspraulif they say it's good, move forward, then I move forward21:01
wolfspraulso far they haven't killed me yet21:01
emebAha. So how's the business structured?21:01
wolfspraulit's the only business in the world where all employees work for free and have to bring money each morning, together with their lunch packs21:02
emebBeen there. :)21:02
wolfspraulwe are just a small team of people enthousiastic about the idea of making hardware that is really in line and tailored towards free software21:02
wolfsprauland we try to build it bottom-up, i.e. making simple functioning products asap and selling them21:02
wolfspraulso far we sold about 750-800 Ben NanoNote, for example21:03
emebAh - you're behind the Nanonote?21:03
emebJust ordered one Fri - should get it Thurs if FedEx is to be believed.21:03
wolfspraulthank you!21:05
emebLooks like a nice upgrade to my old Agenda VR321:06
wolfspraulhopefully you like it, stop by in this channel and tell us21:06
emebWill do. Looks like there's a bit to learn about it which is the fun part for me...21:07
wolfspraulyes, agreed21:07
wolfspraulwith your interest in fpgas, hopefully we can do more together in the future21:07
emebthat sounds like fun.21:07
emebI've got lots of little projects over on that website, some with FPGAs, various audio things. Wide-ranging interests...21:08
wolfspraulgood I will check it21:09
emebSeems I need to drill down into the content on the qi-hardware site too.21:10
emebWell - nice chatting. I'll see you around...21:10
wolfspraulplease do, yes21:10
wolfspraulI am thinking about a camera like Elphel, just leave the CPU out21:11
wolfspraulso basically just CMOS sensor + Spartan-621:11
emebThat could work...21:11
wolfspraulthe stream it down via Ethernet21:11
wolfspraulanyway, nice to chat with you too21:12
wolfspraulemeb: do you have a blog, some rss/atom feed for our planet?21:22
emebwolfspraul: sorry - just that website.21:26
wolfspraulok, I will just add a new section 'free software FPGA projects' to  a wiki page, maybe http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Planet21:29
wolfspraulhave to collect these projects somewhere, maybe other lists already exist, but can't hurt21:30
wolfspraulemeb: do you have a list?21:30
wolfspraulGPL (or other FOSS) licensed FPGA projects?21:30
emebwolfspraul: honestly I haven't given much thought to the licensing on these projects. I suppose some sort of GPL would apply though.21:32
emebI probably ought to refresh all those projects with words to that effect & license details.21:33
emebBut - to answer your question: Yes I can build a list for you.21:33
kristianpauloh you are suing gEDA :)21:35
emebkristianpaul: yes21:35
kristianpaulfew people use it21:36
kristianpaulat least people i know use such us tolls21:36
emebWorks well for my purposes. Keeps getting better.21:36
emebI suppose if one were doing large multi-layer boards it might not be ideal though.21:36
kristianpauli was about to ask that21:37
emebWorks well for 2 layers. 4 layers is probably OK too.21:38
emebbut I've not tried 4. For my day job though I've worked on boards that were 10+ layers and I don't think it would work well for that.21:39
kristianpaulwhat you think about kicad?21:40
emebI've never used it.21:41
emebgotta go - nice chatting...21:41
kristianpaulok bye21:42
kristianpaulbtw the list will nice21:43
Action: kristianpaul reads http://members.cox.net/ebrombaugh1/synth/index.html21:44
wolfspraulkristianpaul: can you help start a 'free software FPGA projects' list in our wiki?21:47
kristianpaulwolfspraul: hey sure21:47
wolfspraulshould we have a new page for that or add it to an existing page?21:47
kristianpaulnew i think21:47
kristianpaulif there is no one yet?21:48
wolfspraulI think with the various FPGA projects coming up such a list will make more and more sense.21:48
wolfspraulI doubt it21:48
wolfspraulwe have some SAKC pages21:48
kristianpaulthere is need for FPGA projects indeed21:48
wolfspraulkristianpaul: nice21:55
kristianpaulwolfspraul: http://www.gaisler.com/cms/22:11
wolfspraulah yes, the LEON CPUs, nice22:17
kristianpauloh http://www.staticfreesoft.com/22:17
kristianpauli just ordered 10 Hoperf modules .D22:40
Action: kristianpaul have plans to get telemetry for trafic lighs in his town22:41
wolfspraulkristianpaul: wow nice!22:45
wolfspraulI am very interested in those modules22:46
kristianpaulme too22:46
wolfspraulwhere did you order them? how much do you pay for shipping? which ones exactly do you order?22:46
wolfspraulhow do you plan to hook them up?22:46
wolfspraulwhich software stack?22:46
wolfspraulwe need to talk about it at Campus Party22:46
kristianpauli order 10 x RFM12B-433S1 433MHZ band Fsk transceiver module SMD(S1) ROHS22:46
wolfspraulI really want to get them into the Ya NanoNote - SlowFi22:47
kristianpaul2 x H28 SMD IC H28 ROHS22:47
kristianpaulshipping was 35usd DHL22:47
wolfspraulmore than the modules22:47
kristianpauli order from DHL22:47
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes but cheaper that sparkfunb22:47
kristianpaulmoudles costs 2522:48
kristianpaulany ay i cheap22:48
kristianpaulsofware stucj dont know yet22:48
kristianpauli saw some examples for pics microcontrolers wich i have acess to22:48
kristianpaulhere atmel is kinf expensive22:48
kristianpaulhook as the examples said22:49
kristianpauli also need buy 10 pics 18F2250 and batteries22:49
kristianpaulwell i need more stuff22:49
kristianpaulthe idea is to have 10 of this units working22:49
kristianpaulans see how interect22:49
wolfspraulwhat do you hook them up to?22:50
wolfspraulwhich CPU?22:50
wolfspraulor microcontroller?22:50
kristianpaulPIC18F2550 from Microchhip22:50
kristianpauli plan hook to the nano as soon i assemled it22:50
kristianpauli also plan get GPS cordenates of the town22:50
kristianpaulwich finally i make gps work :)22:50
kristianpaulnot wich nano yet, i still need solve some wire up issues22:51
kristianpaulbut is close22:51
kristianpaulat least i know the GPS works and well up to 2 hrs22:51
wolfsprauloh nice22:51
wolfspraulso one sec22:51
wolfspraulyou hook up GPS to Ben NanoNote?22:51
wolfspraulthat I knew already, and it's fantastic!22:51
wolfspraulhow about HopeRF? also hook up to NanoNote?22:52
kristianpaulwolfspraul: i did but still havinf problems with my custom wire up22:52
kristianpauli also was fixing the reprap with no luck so i stoped with the nano, but i know time is getting short i need fixs lots things here22:53
kristianpaulwolfspraul: no directly22:53
kristianpaulwell yday were discussing here with lars_ about free gpio pins22:53
wolfspraulno rush, push the NanoNote back, we get things done step by step and cparty preparations are more important I understand22:54
wolfspraulI will try to visit hoperf again, maybe next week22:54
kristianpaulbut i think is better use a small MCU and uart if this get enought tested22:54
wolfspraulbefore I come down to Colombia22:54
wolfspraulif you have questions, I can ask. if you need samples, I can buy and bring with me.22:54
kristianpauli need 10 pics18F2250 cheap :)22:54
kristianpaulor avr whateevr i need 1022:55
kristianpaulthats my next task22:55
kristianpaulabout RF22:55
kristianpaulthe last is solar power22:55
kristianpauli saw some modlues in sparkfun22:55
kristianpaulso i can place the modules and feed it for free22:55
wolfspraulcan the hoperf modules be hooked up with uart?22:55
wolfspraulI thought it's spi only22:55
kristianpaulthats why a small MCU need to that work22:56
kristianpaulin case hoperf could be hookup with the nanonote22:57
wolfspraulah I see22:57
kristianpaulmy bet is22:57
wolfspraulwell you know the details best, if I can help you with sourcing I would love to do that22:57
wolfspraulemail me what you need, I can try22:57
kristianpaulhoperf + pic (low low powe consuption) + gpio + ad + solar power22:57
wolfspraulad = ?22:58
wolfspraulwhat is this device good for?22:58
kristianpaultelemetry i bet at fiest22:59
kristianpaul"SMS" passing22:59
kristianpauli want for remote monitoring of traffic light system22:59
kristianpaulbut i  general text messaging will based22:59
kristianpaullater i can see what other stacks fit23:00
kristianpaulbut if can broadcast test will be nice23:00
kristianpauleven more if "this device" will be apart from the other and so on23:00
kristianpaullike mesh but i dont know if will work23:00
kristianpaulwell i'm off bed23:04
kristianpaulgn8 al23:04
rafa_hello, short question geeks.. :23:40
rafa_is there some /sys/.../file to suspend the whole nn or to turn it off?23:41
wolfspraulrafa_: I think there is, but don't know which one...23:46
wolfspraulboth suspend and turn off I think23:46
rafa_wolfspraul: I want to config power on/off button in Jlime to suspend perhaps23:47
rafa_wolfspraul: btw, jlime distro is starting to look nice ;)23:48
rafa_no GUI yet, but main rootfs is already configured (networking, opkg, etc)23:49
DocScrutinizerohnoes, still the notorious opkg? ;-P23:53
wolfspraulrafa_: nice23:54
rafa_DocScrutinizer: yeah, we use it in Jlime23:56
rafa_you would like to use apt-get ?23:56
DocScrutinizerI feel it's somewhat saner23:56
DocScrutinizerthough I not really got any idea about it23:56
rafa_try debian in nn and run apt-get install quake23:56
rafa_your system will freeze ;)23:57
DocScrutinizerhmm, why that?23:57
rafa_nn has 32 MB of ram23:57
DocScrutinizerapt/cache overflow?23:57
rafa_the package systems need huge amount of ram to work23:57
DocScrutinizerno swap?23:57
rafa_you can add 32 or 64MB of swap.. but you will feel the same23:58
DocScrutinizersorry no NN here23:58
DocScrutinizeropkg upgrade had similar problems iirc23:59
rafa_ipk was born because the problems with rpm/apt in systems with few ram23:59
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