#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2010-05-22

xakhMan, doom flies on this little thing.02:06
Xakhhey, what're the gmenu keys again?03:55
wolfspraulI only know that 'x' launches an app, and that overall pretty much everybody agrees the key mappings are not very 'intuitive' :-)04:03
Xakhhey zear04:06
Xakhzear_: what's the charmap for gmenu2x?04:08
zear_s, d, z, x, select, start, q, p04:10
zear_*esc, enter i mean :D04:10
zear_here's more info: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Gmenu2x04:11
XakhI'm using the android irc client, so the wiki's hard to read ;)04:12
zear_ah :)04:12
Xakhcan someone write out a "date" command, so i can see what i keep typing wrong?04:13
Xakhi can't seem to get my date set.04:15
zear_from the manual: [MMDDhhmm[[CC]YY][.ss]]04:16
Xakhso like date -s and then that?04:19
Xakhor is there  any other syntax i need?04:19
Xakhand is CC like the century?04:22
Xakhthat what that's for?04:22
zear_it's like date 05221025201004:24
Xakhoh i don't put brackets?04:25
Xakhi put date 05220426201004:28
Xakhsaid that was invalid04:28
Xakhit's 0427 here, that should be right, right?04:29
Xakhzear_: thanks for being patient, never had to set a date manually before04:31
zear_no problem, we're here to help04:32
zear_anyway, have to go, happy hacking04:33
Xakhanyone else know what to do bout my date?04:35
Xakhseriously, goin' nuts here.04:43
ilembitovHi, all. Probably, not the most appropriate place to ask, but I'll try anyways. What are the available (I mean, not vintage ones) alternatives to NanoNote? I'd like something similarily priced, but with a slightly different form-factor. I'd like something more like HP Jornada/Psion rather than Sharp Zaurus, so that the screen would be wider and the keyboard would be more useable for touch-typing (like Psion 5mx). Is anybody aware of anything like that?09:06
mthilembitov: OpenPandora seems to be finally shipping their first units now, it's slightly larger than the NanoNote09:16
ilembitovmth: Well, it's still not really what I mean. It doesn't have a proper keyboard. There are some options from Sharp (the most recent NetWalker) or Fujitsu, but they are in a different league and they are priced much higher09:19
mthdo you mean a keyboard with all keys on it, or non-rubber keys?09:20
ilembitovmth:  http://www.dd3dj.de/pics/psion.jpg Here is what I mean (it's Psion 5mx). HP Jornada and Nec MobilePro had something similar (although Psion was the best). However, all of them are long gone and don't have internal memory/USB connectivity09:22
mtha friend of mine has a Toshiba Libretto, but that's years old, I don't know if there have been any successors to it09:24
ilembitovI figured out, that probably a CLI-based interface could do well on an offline device like NanoNote, you just need a wider screen and bigger keyboard. It could still be tiny (Psion 5mx weighed ~250g nearly 10 years ago)09:24
ilembitovmth: Libretto is not really a PDA, but an actual X86 subnotebook. There are lots of similar machines even today, including Fujitsu U series. The only problem is that they are Windows-based (so the keyboard has much more than 50-something keys, including the whole F1-F12 row, etc) and really expensive09:26
ilembitovPsion was perfect in that regard, since they got rid of nearly all non-symbolic keys, leaving Esc, Shift, Ctrl, BackSpace, Fn and Psi (their own mod key, much like second Fn)09:27
ilembitovThey had 58 keys, I guess, nearly 17.5x17.5 mm, if I am not mistaken09:28
ilembitovBTW, how come NanoBook is MIPS-based, not ARM-based?09:30
mthI think it's because the JZ chip is cheaper than ARM-based SoCs, but I'm not sure09:32
mththe USB boot mode is also a big plus, since you can always recover from a flash problem09:32
mthand if you run open source software on it, it's relatively easy to switch architectures09:33
ilembitovWell, NanoBook seems nice. For me, it's just a screen/keyboard issue and the fact that I would have to pay halfprice just for shipping it to Russia =)09:35
ilembitovIt doesn't have a touchscreen, right?09:35
mthI'm not sure, I don't have one myself09:39
mthI think not, but please check09:39
wolfspraulilembitov: we can ship with EMS to Russia now09:46
wolfspraulbut cannot tell you an exact price right now, just email sales@sharism.cc if you are interested09:47
wolfspraulthe keyboard of the Ben NanoNote is definitely tiny, although I think it's good quality09:47
wolfspraulso if you want to do a lot of typing, like programming, then it's probably too small09:48
wolfspraulsame for the screen - small09:48
ilembitovwolfspraul: Thanks, will look into the details10:36
ilembitovwolfspraul: So does it have a touch screen?10:36
nebajothI followed the instructions to flash debian on my NN16:42
nebajoththe pyneo ones16:42
nebajothand now the sucker will not boot16:42
nebajothits not just a matter of not seeing the first tty16:43
nebajothit never gets seen by lsusb16:43
nebajothand hitting power+m with a known good sd card16:43
nebajothdoesn't boot from the sd card16:43
nebajothand power+u doesn't put it in usb mode16:43
nebajothI believe this means that uboot is corrupted somehow16:44
nebajothor are the boot modes controlled lower than uboot?16:44
larscpower + u is handeld by the first stage loader16:47
nebajothso what does it mean if it doesn't work?16:48
nebajothcorrupted or missing first stage loader16:49
larscdo see anything at all on the screen?16:49
nebajoththe red led does come on if its plugged into usb16:49
nebajoththat's the only indication its still alive at all16:49
larscok. so you'll have to put it into usbboot mode by shorting the usbboot contacts under the battery16:50
larscand then flash uboot again16:50
nebajothgoing to attempt it now16:51
nebajothI don't think its working17:01
nebajothlarsc: no luck.17:04
nebajothshorting the two usb pins doesn't help17:04
nebajothhmm perhaps I misunderstand it17:04
nebajothreset button17:05
nebajothstill nothing :(17:08
larscnebajoth: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/USB_BOOT_mode17:23
nebajoththat's what I've been working from17:28
nebajothnothing in lsusb, nothing in dmesg17:32
nebajothwolfspraul: halp18:13
nebajothunbrickable ben bricked18:14
wolfspraulnebajoth: how so?18:14
wolfsprauldo you have the carbonized rubber button?18:14
nebajothreset button?18:14
nebajothor power button?18:14
wolfspraulok one by on18:15
nebajothhaha yes18:15
nebajoththe beginning18:15
wolfspraulhow did you brick it, what happened?18:15
nebajothtried to flash it with debian18:15
nebajoththe pyneo one18:15
nebajothwith the compiler18:15
nebajothnot the mini one18:15
nebajothit seemed to write ok18:15
nebajothbut it won't boot now18:15
nebajothred led comes on when usb cable is plugged in18:15
nebajothbut that's the only sign of life18:15
nebajothnone of the power+u, power+m key combos worked18:16
nebajothI've tried shorting the usb boot pins underneath the batter18:16
wolfsprauldo you want to get Debian to work or back to OpenWrt?18:16
nebajothnothing shows up in dmesg or lsusb18:16
nebajothdon't much care18:16
wolfspraulI cannot help much with Debian, so let's go back to OpenWrt.18:16
nebajothopenwrt would be fine18:16
nebajothfine by me18:16
wolfspraultake the battery out, unplug the USB cable18:16
wolfspraulpush the carbonized rubber button against the USB boot pins on the back18:17
wolfspraultry to hit the 2 test pads there with the black rubber, and press down firmly18:17
nebajothit came with the unit right?18:17
wolfspraulin a small plastic bag18:18
nebajothI've been using a copper wire18:18
wolfspraulok let's try that then18:18
nebajothso I short the usb boot pins18:18
wolfspraulhopefully I guess18:19
wolfspraulfollow my steps18:19
wolfspraulunplug the battery, unplug the USB cable18:19
wolfspraulshort the USB boot pins with the copper cable18:19
wolfspraulthen plug in the USB cable18:19
wolfspraulnormally when the USB cable is plugged in without a battery in the device, it will turn on by itself18:19
wolfspraulon the host, run 'lsusb'18:20
wolfspraulyou can release the USB boot pins 2-3 seconds after plugging in the USB cable18:20
wolfspraulthe USB boot pins only need to be short right after the CPU is powered, it's when it checks the boot mode18:20
wolfspraulin lsusb, you need to see an ID 0x601a:474018:20
nebajothsomething new happened18:21
nebajothno lsusb yet18:21
nebajothbut the led flashed this time18:21
nebajoththat's a good sign18:21
wolfspraulrun lsusb18:21
nebajothI have "watch lsusb" running18:21
wolfsprauldoes the 601a:4740 ID show up?18:21
nebajothbut the short was sketchy18:22
nebajothtrying to get a solid connection18:22
wolfspraulI have used aluminum foil successfully, but you need to press it down very hard (I also wrinkled the aluminum foil somehow that worked better)18:23
nebajothI'm going to go look for that carbonized rubber thing18:23
nebajothI probably still have it18:23
nebajothjust didn't know waht it was for18:23
wolfspraulin the factory we are using a thin screwdriver18:23
wolfspraulbut it's a special one with a very conductive tip to be used for such purposes18:23
wolfspraul(so it's not a screwdriver actually, more a 'test pad shorter' :-))18:24
nebajothnot working18:27
nebajothI can get it to flash the red led each time with the tinfoil18:27
nebajoth(coudln't find the pad)18:27
nebajothbut it doesn't show up in lsusb18:27
tuxbrainhi guys18:29
nebajothgot it18:29
nebajothI ALSO had to hit power18:29
wolfspraultuxbrain: hi there18:29
tuxbrainhi wolfspraul18:30
tuxbrainand the rest of course18:30
tuxbrainI'm totally exhausted , very intense weekend18:30
wolfspraulnebajoth: yes sometimes when you plug in the USB cable it won't turn on by itself. so if you don't see the ID in lsusb, you can go back short the USB boot pins again and press the power button.18:30
wolfspraulbut first you need a way to reliably short the pins, then everything  should be easy18:31
wolfspraulguess you have that now...18:31
wolfspraultuxbrain: how was it?18:31
tuxbrainjust returned from Valencia18:31
wolfspraulsold some stuff, found potential future customers?18:31
wolfspraullearnt something new and fun?18:32
tuxbrainthe yesterday workshop in Barcelona, was planned to 10 assitance become a macro Arduino party of more than 3018:33
tuxbraina lot of interest in nanonote also18:33
wolfspraultuxbrain: do you feel some people might be interested in SAKC?18:34
wolfspraulfor the Elphel camera I sent you, I did not include the keys necessary for the screws18:35
wolfspraulnormally Elphel ships them with every camera but since I had to travel first I couldn't take them (long story)18:35
tuxbrainwe have to talk about Sack or at least the energy control version I have heared from carlos18:35
wolfspraulso you need to buy 4 'hexagon keys', 0.9mm, 1.3mm, 1.5mm, 2.0mm18:35
tuxbrainI will search for the tool don't worry18:36
Action: tuxbrain will deal with that screws even with nails if necesary18:36
wolfspraultuxbrain: nebajoth bricked his Nano when trying to flash Debian with the pyneo instructions, if I understood him correctly18:38
tuxbrainI think people are really not conciouse of what an FPGA means on such device like SACK ,18:39
nebajothwolfspraul: I wonder how much of it was pbkac18:39
nebajothI did it in a hurry18:39
nebajothand I don't remember it taking this long18:40
nebajothso I wonder if I simply forgot to unpack the .ubi18:40
nebajothor something equally silly18:40
wolfspraultuxbrain: oh for sure, I think that's a great opportunity18:41
wolfspraulwe can (and have to) explain what it means18:41
wolfspraulbest with small sample apps that people can use as a starting point18:41
tuxbrainnebajoth: what rootfs are you trying? I recommend to install a light one18:41
nebajothI'm currently installing pyneo's debian-lenny-mini.ubi18:41
nebajothwhat are the benefits of an FPGA on SAKC?18:42
wolfspraulyou program it in Verilog, it's just a very different kind of performance you can generate with that18:43
steve|mhaving a fpga + an cpu is pretty awesome I think18:43
nebajothuse case?18:43
wolfspraulyou can think of an FPGA as a super-parallelized programming language18:43
steve|msince you have a flexible "glue logic" directly on the board, there are lots of stuff you can do with it, driving ADCs e.g.18:44
wolfspraulnebajoth: anything that requires real-time processing of analog data. the cpu will never be able to handle it.18:44
nebajothso like your oscilloscope demo18:44
tuxbrainnebajoth: in short, you have a blank chip you can install CPU or other kind of chip cores (ethernet, a buch of PWD outputs, complex logical circuitry ...)18:44
wolfspraulyes. you can think of verilog as a massively parallel programming language.18:45
nebajothcan you point me to a good starters guide for verilog?18:45
wolfspraulyou can get a lot done on each clock cycle :-)18:45
wolfspraulnot me unfortunately, I still haven't done any verilog coding myself.18:46
tuxbrainnebajoth: is just blank screen after a while?, have you tried the alt+ctrl+F2?18:47
steve|msame here, but I think the SAKC is a cool starting platform for this.. you can directly bootstrap the fpga from the cpu which is pretty neat18:47
steve|mwolfspraul: when will the sakc be available btw?18:47
tuxbrainsteve|m:we are trying to do it as best a possible, untill now no release date, but we are on it.18:50
steve|mah, okay.. cool18:51
wolfspraulsteve|m: there are so many things moving everywhere, we have to be careful a bit18:52
tuxbrainnebajoth: wget http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/Ben_NanoNote_2GB_NAND/latest/openwrt-xburst-u-boot.bin18:52
tuxbrainwget http://pyneo.org/downloads/nano/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-uImage.bin18:52
wolfspraulmost important for me is to make Ben NanoNote software better first18:52
tuxbrainwget http://mister-muffin.de/nanonote/debian-sid.ubi18:52
wolfspraulmost of that will carry over to stuff like SAKC18:52
wolfspraulwith 'better software' I also mean better documentation, cleaner wiki, etc.18:52
tuxbrainusbboot -c "boot"18:52
tuxbrainusbboot -c "nerase 0 4096 0 0"18:52
tuxbrainusbboot -c "nprog 0 openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.bin 0 0 -n"18:53
tuxbrainusbboot -c "nprog 1024 openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-uImage.bin 0 0 -n"18:53
tuxbrainusbboot -c "nprog 2048 debian-sid.ubi 0 0 -n"18:53
wolfspraulsteve|m: were you also working on osmocombb?18:55
tuxbrainwell guys , time to some sleep here, I have "tonge-ache" of preaching about copyleft hardware cu18:56
nebajothI think I know why18:56
nebajothI flashed pyneo's u-boot18:56
nebajothwhich is for the avt2-board18:56
nebajothits right in the instructions18:56
nebajothI'm just an idiot18:56
steve|mwolfspraul: yes, right.. I've got the CECT harald sent my btw18:56
steve|mwolfspraul: I figured out the GPIOs used for the flashlight and can do some fancy flickering with the keypad, backlight and flashlight LEDs, but it crashes with my uart driver18:58
steve|mwolfspraul: I guess I have to get jtag working18:58
nebajothhas anyone gotten bluetooth working on a NN yet?19:01
wolfsprauldon't think so, haven't hear anything19:01
wolfspraulsteve|m: hmm, I see19:01
wolfspraulwell that doesn't sound too bad, seems you are making progress19:02
steve|mwolfspraul: yes right, once the initial obstacle of a proper serial communication is overcome, things get more easy.. but the biggest problem is the undocumented Layer1/DSP interface that has to be reverse engineered19:06
steve|mwolfspraul: there is leaked sourcecode available for the mtk platform, but this is basically what the phone manufacturers get, so all the GSM and DSP-related stuff is already precompiled19:07
wolfspraulsteve|m: this is how the 6223 talks to which other chip?19:09
wolfspraulor is the DSP running inside the 6223 as well?19:09
steve|mwolfspraul: the DSP is inside the 622x, along with its program rom.. basically the same design as the TI Calypso, but the 622x do have the Analog Baseband on-die as well19:11
steve|m(which is a second chip on the TI calypso platform)19:11
steve|mand there is a shared memory interface between the ARM and DSP core.. so for reverse engineering there are multiple options.. either running the "leaked" firmware and adding some code to constantly dump the shared memory window if possible, or disassemble the MTK libraries (which luckily contain _many_ debug strings), or disassemling the DSP rom code (this is what tnt did with the Calypso rom code), luckily there is IDA support as well for t19:14
wolfspraulwhat are the other 2 chips on the C3100 doing? MTK6139BN and RDA6212+19:15
steve|mwolfspraul: the 6139 is the GSM transceiver, the arm communicates over a SPI-protocol with it, telling it the frequency to tune to and so on, it also drives the RDA6212, the Power Amplifier19:17
wolfspraulah OK, thx19:19
mthdoes the NanoNote use alsa-lib (libasound) or only the ALSA device itself?20:04
kristianpaulwolfspraul: nice assebling steps of ephel camera23:13
wolfspraulpanda|x201: you were looking for me the other day. How can I help?23:17
panda|x201wolfspraul, Hi, I just want you show you this product23:38
panda|x201wolfspraul, http://www.amazon.com/WowWee-Rovio-Enabled-Robotic-WebCam/dp/B001CQLGD6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1274585847&sr=1-123:38
panda|x201wolfspraul, it looks very like the product I want to build23:38
urandom_panda|x201 what price do you aim for yours?23:42
panda|x201urandom_, well, I just want to target on "Home Robot", so price should be as lower as possible23:43
panda|x201wolfspraul, urandom_ I want to integrated with 3G module23:43
panda|x201wolfspraul, urandom_ so that you can operate it from your 3G cell phone23:43
panda|x201wolfspraul, urandom_ to supervise old-man, kids and pets at your home remotely23:44
urandom_sounds cool, i might buy one if it will be open hardware ;)23:46
panda|x201urandom_, well, we will focus on software part, so yes, it should be open hardware,23:50
Action: panda|x201 out for lunch with families ...23:51
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