#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2010-05-13

vegyraupemorning channel02:07
tuxbrainmorning vegy03:20
tuxbrainthere is a way to know the actual free nand space once booted?03:57
vegyraupetuxbrain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Df_%28Unix%2904:03
tuxbrainthanks vegyraupe, I don't know why I think df should not work on nand, of course I'm totally wrong :)04:04
vegyraupeall good04:06
vegyraupeI double checked myself, just to be sure ;)04:06
tuxbrainvegyraupe: have you see the vid?, the "lamp steady cam" has improved a lot image quality :P04:19
vegyraupehehe no didn't check it yet04:21
wolfspraultuxbrain: I saw it, it's great!04:34
wolfspraulyes the video quality is much improved04:34
tuxbrainI have detected one mistake I try to remember on next ones, comments are a little bit quick04:36
tuxbrainand of course some typos :P04:36
wolfspraultypos are cool04:38
jluistuxbrain: kudos for the new video. I liked the way I recognized you face in the reflection on the  screen but  I'm still wondering abaut the black T-shirt you wore when doing it09:21
steve|mtuxbrain: hehe, beethovens 5th09:26
tuxbrainjluis: the FOSDEM one ;)09:27
jluisI had problems reading the text on the reflection09:29
tuxbrainsteve|m: in http://www.danielbautista.com/ you will find the full version and a lot of classical covers too, this guy is really good at guitar09:30
steve|mtuxbrain: Erotomania (Dream Theater) 23-jun-2003 yay!09:32
jluisthe next video you should wear night covert mision clodes and make-up or use a polarization filter ;P09:32
tuxbrainjluis: Buy me an Elphel 353 and I will on it :P09:33
steve|mgrab the elphel from a parking streetview car ;)09:33
tuxbrainsteve|m: is CC and can be used for comercial use?09:34
steve|mtuxbrain: hm, it's on the page of the guy you sent me.. it's a cover from my favorite progressive metal band ;)09:35
tuxbrainnow I understand... I'm more dragonforce fan boy than dream theater. :P09:36
steve|mtuxbrain: I've seen them a few weeks ago, they embedded my youtube videos on their page! :D09:37
steve|mtuxbrain: http://www.youtube.com/user/TauntOfCuscany09:38
steve|mtuxbrain: respectively http://www.dragonforce.com/2010/04/01/dragonforce-musikmesse-2010-report/ :)09:38
Action: tuxbrain is actualy shaking his head madly in front of the monitor09:42
steve|mI'm always amazed again how good the sound quality of the Panasonix Lumix DMC-TZ7 is..09:45
tuxbrainme too, man that was beautiful, song is even better instrumental. wow09:48
steve|mtuxbrain: was a pretty cool day.. I was there with a few friends, and my father was working as a sound engineer for peavey this day, they had a signing hour at the peavey booth, so had a small talk with the guys and got an autograph09:56
Action: tuxbrain feels the envy levels growing in his veins09:57
steve|mtuxbrain: hehe... but as you can see on the audience, this is a trade fair, only few people were headbanging and stuff :)09:58
tuxbrainyes, uff, I have started to thing german guys doesn't have blood in his veins man, I was surprised no pogo not jumping no tipical pushing dance... wtf just two of tree hands with "cuernos" (horns?) signs in front of this metal beauty???? now I understand10:00
tuxbrainvegyraupe: hi vegyraupe10:12
FrankBluesI'm trying to diagnose a problem with my Nanonote, I'm thinking I may have found the solution...10:15
FrankBluesHow does the nanonote behave when the battery is low?10:16
tuxbrainwith low power screen tends to go white10:17
FrankBluesHeh, I thought I had fried the thing...I kept reflashing it thinking it was a software problem.10:18
tuxbrainthat was what was happening?10:20
vegyraupehey tuxbrain10:21
FrankBluesIt looked like it was caught in a reboot loop, so I thought there was some sort of hardware issue that kept it cycling.10:21
tuxbrainben can be a little bit picky some times but are barelly unbrickable10:23
FrankBluesI'm amazed at how resilient the ben is.10:24
orly_owlAny group buy for NanoNote in .au?10:43
orly_owlAlso what is the battery life like?10:45
kristofferorly_owl, should be links on website I guess. Or drop a mail on mailinglist.11:01
orly_owloh ok11:02
kristianpaulorly_owl: battery life varies12:02
kristianpaulin my case it take around 4 hours to discharge  just listenting ogg12:02
kristianpaulbut  read in the mail list some guy got  a nokia battery wich gives more time12:02
kristianpaulwich is great12:03
zearkristianpaul, technically, you should be able to lower the cpu clock for tasks that don't need the standard 336MHz12:05
zearthat would reduce the battery usage12:05
zearogg playback should be fine at 100 something MHz12:05
kristianpauli remnber gmenu2x said that too12:06
zearyes, gmenu allows for clock scaling12:06
zearyou can set different clocks for each app separately12:07
kristianpaulbut once is set by gmenu gmu will overwrite or just work with that freq?12:07
zearthough the cpu scaling code is for jz4740, not jz472012:07
zearwhile it actually works, i don't know how bad it is :)12:07
zeari remember someone saying it sets some values incorrectly12:08
zearbut well, it works12:08
zearbut anyway, gmenu2x automatically rescales the clock back to the default value that's in it's config, using the jz4740 code12:09
zearand nobody reported toasted nanonotes yet, so i guess it's safe ;)12:09
zear*rescales it after relaunch12:09
Action: FrankBlues waves14:10
tuxbrain_awayjust a note about gmenu2x cpu freq, it's the guilty of the screen tilling issue, so I thing it has been removed for the next release (the cpu freq not gmenu2x) somebody correctme if I'm wrong14:57
urandom_we dont have sdl-mixer on the nanonote, have we? i am trying to run supertux on it15:02
zeari think we don't15:11
zearbut you can copy the one from dingux toolchain (dirty)15:11
zeartuxbrain_away, yeah, i think it had something to do with it15:11
zearand better than removing it would be fixing it according to jz4720 values15:12
urandom_we should include it in the next image since lots of dingoo apps use sdl-mixer i think15:16
FrankBluesWould anyone be willing to answer a few silly nanonote questions?15:18
urandom_try it FrankBlues!15:19
FrankBluesOkay... does rootfs expand on its own as more files are added to it? It seems fairly small for the amount of NAND available...15:20
FrankBluesMy other questions have to do with nanonote backup options, and putting debian on an SD card.15:24
urandom_uboot can boot from sd-card, you have to press M on startup, but dont know if anyone has run debian from sd yet15:27
urandom_i dont know much about the other two questions15:28
FrankBluesWhat about putting openwrt on the sd card?15:30
shevekFrankBlues: if by "on its own" you mean automatically, then no.  The partitions are statically sized, and it's probably hard to resize them without damaging the data on other partition(s).15:30
FrankBluesshevek: Why is the default rootfs so small then? Can you add additional partitions to take up the rest of the NAND?15:31
shevekFrankBlues: I think the rest is the data partition, isn't it?  That's for storing everything that shouldn't be lost when flashing a new rootfs (not sure if it works that way, though).  Note that I'm not actually using the openwrt stuff; I'm writing a new kernel instead.  So I could be wrong about these things. ;-)15:33
tuxbrain_awaypeople can you confirm is tuxbrain.com is down? or is just my network?15:34
urandom_i heared about this new kernel, what ist it about shevek?15:34
FrankBluestuxbrain isn't returning pings.15:34
shevektuxbrain_away: It isn't showing a website either15:34
FrankBluessorry, I should be more clear: tuxbrain.com isn't returning pings.15:34
shevekFrankBlues: :-)15:35
FrankBluesshevek: I'm not seeing the extra space in df... the only thing that's being reported (besides things like /proc and /dev) are ubi0:rootfs mounted as / and the sd card I have mounted as /mnt/mmcblk0p115:36
shevekurandom_: It's mostly inspired by what the Hurd should be.  Its main feature is that it uses capabilities, which means that to do anything, a program must be explicitly allowed to do it.  For example, to open a file, a capability to a directory is required.15:36
shevekurandom_: When a program is started, it gets initial capabilities from its parent.  Anything it doesn't need, it doesn't get (the parent decides what it needs).15:38
shevekurandom_: This leads to very much improved security, and more importantly, IMO, it allows users to do everything they want, without ever needing to ask the system administrator (except if they need actual hardware rights).15:39
urandom_shevek sounds interesting, have you released some alpha of it yet?15:40
shevekurandom_: The source is available.  At the moment it only boots using usbboot, but I'm currently working to be able to boot it from NAND and (via u-boot) from SD.15:41
shevekurandom_: It doesn't actually do much yet, though. ;-)15:42
urandom_where can i find the source?15:42
urandom_well i did not expect it to do much yet, a kernel is pretty complicated15:42
shevekurandom_: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/iris/source/tree/master/15:43
shevekurandom_: to build it, you probably need to read this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/2010-May/002927.html15:44
shevek(if you didn't yet)15:44
shevekFrankBlues: In that case I don't know how it is organized.15:45
FrankBluesshevek: S'allright. Thanks for the help, though!15:46
shevekurandom_: If you succeed in building it, please write a report of what you did on the wiki.  I think it may not be so easy as I would like it to be.15:46
urandom_well if i succed ;) , but yeah i will15:50
shevekurandom_: Thanks :-)15:51
shevekurandom_: If things don't work, just ask. :-)15:51
FrankBluesNote to self: don't backup /proc.15:53
urandom_oh iris if also for trendtac,15:59
shevekurandom_: That's what I wrote it originally for, but I haven't tested it and am pretty sure that all my changes to the boot process have broken things on it.16:02
shevekI haven't tested it lately, that is.  I did test it originally, of course.16:02
shevekOne reason that the NanoNote is much nicer is that all datasheets are available.  For the trendtac, I don't have the programmer's manual for the Jz4730,16:03
urandom_how portable is iris? will it be hard to port it to other devices?16:03
shevekurandom_: I tried to keep it sort of portable, but especially the drivers are written specifically for the NanoNote (or Trendtac) hardware.  To to other mips should be relatively easy.  To port to another architecture would mean rewriting most of the boot system.  It's not that hard when you know what it's doing, but it is some work.16:05
shevekurandom_: Iris itself (the kernel) isn't so large anyway.  Everything which doesn't run priviledged (so it can't access I/O) is completely portable, it only depends on the interfaces with other programs.16:06
shevekurandom_: For security and portability considerations, the priviledged programs can be considered part of the kernel.  But even if you count them, the kernel isn't very large.16:08
DingooDigitalUSAneed help with ubuntu18:06
tuxbrain_awayDingooDigitalUSA: what happens_18:07
DingooDigitalUSAI'm trying to install a sepcific driver18:09
DingooDigitalUSAnot the one listed under driver manger18:09
steve|mDingooDigitalUSA: and, what doesn't work when launching it with sudo in a text console (xorg shut down first)18:11
FrankBluesOk, so on the default distribution, will the rootfs grow to fit the onboard NAND, or can you create more partitions if you want to use more space?18:38
larscFrankBlues: see http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ubifs_Startup18:50
FrankBluesAha! Thanks!18:51
FrankBluesSo if I create a data partition, it will not get reflashed during the reflash-ben.sh process?18:54
qi-commitsXiangfu Liu: [xburst] add zimage http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/cb2a39920:28
steve|mtuxbrain_away: I can run C-code on a mtk phone :)20:30
tuxbrain_awaynow why don't just port a simple app....  I found something called "kernel linux" or something like that written in C :P20:32
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: yes i think you can tun multiple arduinos in SAKC from what i see20:34
kristianpaulactually even a mico3220:34
steve|mtuxbrain_away: hrhr.. well, next thing is a proper uart driver.. currently I just write somethign to the TX register in a loop and watch my console getting spammed :)20:34
tuxbrain_awaysteve|m: no now seriously really good news thanks for sharing20:34
tuxbrain_awaykristianpaul: that's also really good news too :), so SACK can Help on Milkymist development too :)20:35
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: yeah ! that came to my mine some weeks ago20:36
kristianpaulboth projects can coperate20:36
kristianpaulother crazy ideai i have is that it could may run gnuradio stuff20:36
kristianpaulin some level i think20:36
kristianpaulbut that needs some doughther baords and sofware development20:37
tuxbrain_awayIn arduino world we call it a shield :P20:37
tuxbrain_awayand a library20:37
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: and if you sell SAKC i could order one too ;)20:38
kristianpauli think is in line comptetition of AVNET Spartan board of 50USD20:39
steve|mhm, pretty cool stuff.. I wanted to get started with fpgas quite a while ago, so maybe its about time :)20:41
kristianpaulsteve|m: http://www.fpga4fun.com/20:42
kristianpauland get fun :)!20:42
steve|myes, know this page.. I hope my OpenBench logic sniffer arrives soon20:43
tuxbrain_awaythe avnet spartan also includes a mips procesor?20:48
kristianpaulnot actually20:49
tuxbrain_awayI think there are not much boards with procesor +fpga in one, I'm right?20:49
kristianpaulnope at all20:49
kristianpaulthe use jus a microcntroller to load the bitstreams20:49
kristianpaulactually Carlos Camargo loves FPGA + Procesors in all its designs20:50
kristianpaulso thats interesting :)20:50
tuxbrain_awayok, also about price... don't expect to be much cheaper than BNN20:50
kristianpaulnope :(20:50
kristianpauli guess will kidn expensive20:50
tuxbrain_awaywhat is expensive for you20:51
kristianpaul99usd is expensive20:51
tuxbrain_awayok :)20:51
tuxbrain_awayand for the rest of the world? :P20:52
kristianpaulwell i guess too20:52
kristianpaulG8 is too small and there are more contries and potencials hackers outthere20:52
kristianpaulwich can not buy this technologies yet20:53
kristianpaulso still expensive ;)20:53
kristianpaulfor the rest of the world20:53
tuxbrain_awaymmm interesting approach20:54
kristianpaulhope XO-3 will change that20:56
kristianpaulbut that's other project :)20:56
tuxbrain_awaykristian if import/export not was so a nightmare (really it is) , and each customs you have to crooss is just a price increacing, but that other part of the history us as distributor/manufacuters have hack :)20:58
tuxbrain_awayhave ->have to20:58
kristianpauli bet for personal mufacturing as and alternative20:59
kristianpaulto break some process in way we acess ant think about goods20:59
Action: kristianpaul have a reprap and a cupcake at home21:00
kristianpauls/cupcake/from makerbot21:00
kristianpauli know it is simple stuff21:00
kristianpaulthat you can mek21:01
kristianpaulbut is an starting point21:01
kristianpaulchips and screen needs long time research :)21:01
tuxbrain_awaymmm I'm more on the wolfgang line of more than DIY, let's success to enlage volumes to low the price to be able to reach that low resources countries with cheap products.21:03
kristianpaulthat true is some way21:03
kristianpaulso far ;)21:04
tuxbrain_awaymmm not so, really21:05
tuxbrain_awayof course what you consider far?21:05
kristianpaulgood point21:05
tuxbrain_awayone year is far?21:07
kristianpauli near :)21:08
wolfspraulkristianpaul: as a hardware business (us = all qi/copyleft hardware believers), it is our mission to drive prices down21:08
wolfsprauldown = zero21:08
wolfspraulbringing prices down is a good thing21:08
wolfspraulit is outright fantastic what kind of computing power you can buy nowadays for a few hundred USD21:09
tuxbrain_awaythat is your motto wolf :)21:09
wolfspraulthat is only possible thanks to the billions and billions invested by the HW industry21:09
wolfspraulif you go the DIY/reprap direction, the computers will cost millions of USD again21:09
wolfspraulfor each one of course21:09
wolfspraulso no, I don't believe in that21:09
wolfspraulI believe in building a large, great machine21:09
wolfspraulthat costs losts of money21:10
wolfspraulbut then it can automate & produce millions of high-tech chips/computers for low money each one21:10
wolfsprauland of course this machine can be anywhere in the world21:10
kristianpaulgood point21:10
wolfspraulbut you should be very cold blooded when it comes to price21:10
wolfspraulCarlos just had a painful lesson again.21:10
wolfspraulthere is a delay with the new SAKC boards21:11
wolfsprauland why? because he trusted a local PCB vendor (local = Colombian)21:11
wolfspraulif he would have ordered it from pcbcart.com (in Hanghzou/China), he would get it cheaper and faster!21:11
wolfspraulso who is suffering now? Carlos :-)21:11
wolfspraulhe is loosing time and money21:11
wolfspraulif some components or work steps can be done most efficiently in Colombia, great. Let's do the investment, then Colombia can do this, not just for itself, but maybe also for neighboring countries, maybe for the whole world if they are really good at it.21:12
gbraadwolfspraul didn't you intervene and told him to go to pcbcart?21:13
wolfspraulshipping everything aroudn the world is stupid. but breaking great investments such as those into IC or LCM fabs into thousands of little reprap IC fabs is even more stupid.21:13
wolfspraulI visited pcbcart in Hangzhou instead :-)21:14
Action: gbraad just wondered21:14
wolfsprauljust happened to be there21:14
wolfspraulkristianpaul: so there are two different things here21:14
wolfspraulone is whether you know how to do something, and on that end I fully and totally support the idea of diy/reprap etc.21:14
wolfspraulknowledge should be free21:14
wolfspraulbut then the next question is whether you should use your knowledge in such a way that you ahve to do everything you know yourself, or that even with what you know, you can let others work for you if that makes more sense21:15
wolfsprauland that is a separate decision to make21:15
kristianpauli understand we realy in others21:15
kristianpaulis not all our selfs21:15
wolfspraulyes. in fact the more you know and understand, the more confident you should be in letting others help you.21:16
wolfspraulthat goes in all directions of course.21:16
wolfspraulit's not a one-way street21:16
wolfspraullet me give you an example about Brazil21:17
gbraadwolfspraul: that statement is general for any 'good' manager. know the abilities of the people and trust them. like: steer them, but not take away initiative from them21:17
wolfspraulBrazil has high import taxes on assembled electronics21:17
kristianpaulthe thing is we already now there are cheaps way of making stuff, but, what they do? sell cheap or just close thaen seld and take advantage of the situation21:17
wolfspraulbut for parts, they are lower21:18
wolfspraulbecause Brazil thinks that's how they can employ locals21:18
wolfspraulproblem is: assembly & testing are tighly integrated, and efficient21:18
wolfspraulvery very efficient21:18
wolfspraulso you cannot separate all this21:18
wolfspraulso what happens is in China, they _ADD_ another disassembly step after having assembled & tested everything21:18
wolfspraulthen it goes to Brazil21:18
wolfspraulthrough customs on the lower tack ticket21:18
wolfspraulthen it's reassembled again21:18
wolfspraulhow stupid is that?21:18
wolfspraulof course indeed more people are employed now21:19
gbraadthe standard kit trick, final assembly done in.21:19
wolfspraulkristianpaul: sorry didn't understand your last point21:19
wolfspraul"we know there are cheap ways of making things"?21:20
wolfspraulyou should focus on adding value21:20
wolfspraulyou may be able to add value in many ways21:20
tuxbrain_awaygbraad: in Craig house, sorry I can't stand :P21:20
wolfspraulonce you know how and where to add value, if the product's knowledge is really free, you will be able to do it21:20
urandom_well doing everything youself/locally gives you much indypendence but is very inefectiv so you have to find a way between it21:20
kristianpaulwolfspraul: i meant things can get made at low prices21:21
wolfspraulif the product's knowledge is not free, you may have a great opportunity right in front of you, but you cannot get at it because iNanny doesn't let you. the mothership wants to control everything.21:21
wolfspraulbut you shouldn't go the other extreme and try to bake every IC in your kitchen oven21:21
wolfspraulyou may have a lot of fun, but definitely will go bankrupt soon :-)21:22
gbraadtuxbrain_away: huh? didn't get it :-P21:22
wolfspraulactually ICs are not baked, but you get my point...21:22
kristianpaulyes i know that21:22
wolfspraulsome people try to do SMT in their oven, or rather hacked-into ovens21:22
kristianpauleven i think about it all time21:22
wolfspraulno it's nonsense21:23
wolfspraulin free software, we trust each other, right?21:23
tuxbrain_awaysorry, is related on openpadora project, the finally pretend to mount on the house of one of the promoter/owner21:23
gbraadbaking chips makes them more crispy ;)21:23
wolfspraulif you fix a bug, and commit something, I happily download your latest version and run it on my computer21:23
wolfspraulfree software is built on a trust principle between all the people that participate21:23
wolfspraulobviously this goes for hardware too21:23
wolfspraulif there is an IC or LCM fab, why shouldn't we trust it?21:23
wolfspraulthey make great TFTs for 8 USD a piece (for example)21:24
wolfspraullet's just buy from them!21:24
wolfspraulsomeone invested 2 billion USD into the fab21:24
wolfspraulTHANK YOU!21:24
gbraadtuxbrain_away I have followed the openpandor people, but lost interest: took them too long to deliver21:24
wolfspraulthe only thing I want (speaking for myself) is that they don't tie me into NDAs21:24
wolfspraulthey publish all their tech data, datasheets, everything21:24
wolfspraulso that I can still go after my busines opportunities21:24
wolfspraulwithout always asking for permission21:24
wolfspraulbut the fact that they can sell me this product for 8 USD, after having invested x billion USD, is a great great thing, for me and everybody else21:25
wolfspraulthat's how I see it at least...21:25
kristianpaulbut that big machine you pointed is based on the fact ...21:25
kristianpaulcause having avaliable everywhere have implaction21:25
kristianpaulthe knowledge about how to use/build it need to be pass it21:26
wolfspraulyes sure, we are on the same page21:26
wolfspraulcopyleft hardware21:26
kristianpaulpass it with no disclosure21:26
wolfspraulknowledge should be free, to keep everybody honest, to avoid all the nasty iNanny side-effects we all know21:27
wolfspraulbut that doesnt' mean I don't appreciate the fact that a big capital investment by someone can be very beneficial to me21:27
wolfspraulI don't want to DIY everything. it won't work.21:27
kristianpaulof course21:27
wolfspraulif there is a bridge across a large river, even if it cost a lot of money to build, and they charge a high toll fee, I probably still prefer it to swimming through the river :-)21:28
wolfspraul(strange comparison, not related to copyleft :-))21:28
kristianpaulnow i think what is swimming21:29
wolfspraulI was pissed once that the Verrazano bridge in NY was so expensive - 9 USD to ride over it once with a car.21:29
wolfspraulReally pissed. Until I realized it's still far far better than the huge detour I would have to take without, or even to swim through the river.21:30
wolfspraulouch, Wikipedia tells me Verrazano is now 11 USD / car21:31
wolfspraulgood thing I'm not in NY much anymore...21:31
wolfspraulkristianpaul: back to SAKC, you can think which part of the board we can make in Colombia21:31
wolfspraulCarlos is already trying, but the first attempt with the PCB was painful I think21:32
wolfspraulmaybe PCB or SMT?21:32
wolfspraulwe'll see...21:32
kristianpaulPCB here is painfull21:32
wolfspraulhow about SMT?21:32
kristianpauldont know really21:32
kristianpaulthere are few21:32
kristianpaulwich can do that21:32
kristianpaulso few here = bad thing21:32
wolfspraulalways keep the (global) alternatives in mind21:33
kristianpaulin  generals21:33
kristianpauli do21:33
wolfspraullook for business opportunities, not for opportunities to do everything yourself21:33
wolfspraulthe latter will just not work, ever21:33
kristianpaulactully my reprap was made thanks to the later21:33
kristianpaulthere are good prices out there ;)21:33
wolfspraulwell I hope you do it for the learning experience21:33
wolfspraulyou can learn tons of things that way, and that is great21:34
wolfspraulnow - how do you apply that knowledge?21:34
wolfspraulthat's the next level21:34
kristianpauli guess about reprap and i saw people doing, that convine this technology with cheal already made stuff (vitamins) could generate derivatives wich can compete with high tech 3D closed source printings21:44
kristianpaulthat is not bad i think21:44
kristianpaulwolfspraul: ?21:44
kristianpauli fair for a better copyleft world, no?21:44
wolfspraulkristianpaul: my mind is 100% focused on copylefting the NanoNote, so I really cannot say anything about vitamins21:45
wolfspraulI am digging around the tech details of this little computer21:45
wolfspraulthen maybe how to add GPS, how to add a good open/free RF capability, etc.21:46
wolfspraulyou know much more about reprap than me, so you tell me about it. I listen :-)21:46
wolfspraulI just talk about my little clamshell computer...21:46
wolfspraulI just went for a good visit at our keyboard factory, and was impressed.21:47
wolfsprauland no, I don't want to compete with that in any way :-)21:47
wolfspraulthere is a reason these guys are successfully and profitably making 5 million keyboard per month21:47
wolfspraulin that factory alone21:47
wolfspraulthat's 60 million a year!21:48
wolfspraul(assuming the numbers they gave me are accurate, but I have no reason to not believe them right now)21:48
wolfspraul6500 people working there21:48
wolfsprauland lots of high-tech too21:48
wolfspraulclean rooms21:48
wolfspraulunbelievable machines, for plating, lasering, etc.21:48
wolfsprauland in the end a notebook keyboard costs 10-30 USD21:49
wolfspraulTHANK YOU!21:49
wolfspraulvery very good job21:49
wolfspraulI have absolutely nothing to say or do that could improve any of this.21:49
wolfspraulso I just shut up, open my wallet, pay 10-30 USD, and buy a keyboard from them :-)21:49
wolfspraulif you want to compete with that with your reprap, go ahead. We'll see...21:49
kristianpauli have other markets21:49
wolfspraul(of course that's a bit unfair, like I said I love reprap for its learning potential)21:50
wolfspraulsure sure21:50
wolfspraulI was a bit unfair :-)21:50
wolfsprauljust impressed by that factory visit...21:50
kristianpaullearning is the market in my case :)21:50
kristianpauland experiment21:50
wolfspraulwell for that all these DIY things are unbeatable21:50
wolfspraulwerner uses a cheap lamination device he hacked into to print his pcbs21:51
kristianpaulabout the fab visits what's is next?21:51
wolfsprauland his own acid solution for etching21:51
wolfspraulnot sure, what's next. Next is Elphel. Great GPL licensed camera makers.21:51
wolfspraulin China, maybe the hinge guys21:51
wolfspraulhinge guys, then plastic injection guys (the ones making the plastic parts)21:52
kristianpauli read about a university too about chips manufacturing processes?21:52
wolfspraulyes, true21:52
wolfspraulthat one too, but that will need a bit more time21:52
wolfspraulfirst step now is Elphel, I want to do that right21:53
wolfspraulI think that's a great company and product, and they have a lot to say, lots of experience to share.21:53
wolfspraulmaybe we can work with them somehow, primarily to bring the price of the product down21:53
wolfspraulalso I become more interested in the LCM controller ICs lately21:54
wolfspraulso maybe I try to find some of those guys21:54
wolfspraulproblem is power consumption in the (mobile) CPU is pretty much maxed out21:54
wolfspraulnowadays what needs all the power is the backlight & LCM21:55
gbraadwolfspraul: just a note. You know the Leopardboard guys? Leopard Imaging21:57
wolfspraulleopardboard, no21:58
wolfspraulanother TI thing?21:58
gbraadeh, yeah21:58
wolfspraulbeagle, hawk, leopard?21:58
gbraadI knew it21:58
gbraadThe Elphel uses a Etrax CRIS. very exotic cpu21:58
wolfspraulso they have to switch to a TI chip now21:59
wolfsprauldavinci? forgot...21:59
gbraadthe leopard uses a dm36521:59
gbraadDaVinci series21:59
wolfspraulso you want me to tell them to look at the leopardboard?21:59
gbraadhmmm... hmmm... difficult to answer22:00
gbraadat least they produce a VERY cheap product, but also use good quality ccd's; aptina22:00
gbraadLeopardboard is partly backed by Ridgerun for the software stack22:01
wolfspraulhow much is the leopardboard?22:01
gbraad84 USD22:02
gbraadSorry for interrupting you by the way.22:06
gbraadBTW, booked a ticket for the 4th of June (¬). So from the second week of June I would be available. If you want to make an appointment, just let me know. But I will now really be off, 4am.22:10
wolfspraulI'm with Jon in San Francisco22:11
wolfspraullooked at the leopardboard22:11
gbraadAh, send him my greetings :)22:11
wolfspraulwouldn't know what to do with it, but thanks for the pointer first time I hear about it22:11
wolfspraulnext maybe? lionboard?22:12
wolfspraulI'm sure we will find out soon...22:12
gbraadit is a platform we eventually used at the ministry of defence in holland. the elphel was too expensive and dififcult to deal with for software development22:12
wolfspraulI agree on both of those points.22:12
wolfspraulk get some rest22:12
--- Fri May 14 201000:00

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