#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2014-04-20

DocScrutinizer05LOL! http://xkcd.com/1357/   00:32
DocScrutinizer05[2014-04-16 Wed 03:32:56] <DocScrutinizer05> natsukao: you've been warned twice to stop00:32
DocScrutinizer05[2014-04-16 Wed 03:33:20] <natsukao> I° Amendament of American Constitution defends Freedom Of Speech00:32
DocScrutinizer05[2014-04-16 Wed 03:33:31] *** You set a ban on natsukao!*@*.00:32
wpwrakso he'll never vote for you to become his governor :)00:53
DocScrutinizer05it is actually strange how xkcd fits in a 3 days later01:10
DocScrutinizer05you might think he#s on #maemo, lurking01:10
DocScrutinizer05if he's not even a she, who knows01:11
DocScrutinizer05ooh, >>Randall Munroe<<01:15
DocScrutinizer05awesome: http://xkcd.com/249/01:19
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw, on VFAT +x is the default06:26
whitequark(unless you set a mount option)06:27
DocScrutinizer05yep08:47
DocScrutinizer05though it shouldn't, and users/owners are hard to specify08:48
wpwraknice: the cost of heartbleed http://www.wired.com/2014/04/cost-of-heartbleed/11:20
wpwraki guess it would almost make sense to add "tags" to certificates, so that one could revoke a tag and with it all the certs that have it11:22
wpwrak(of course, the few sites who weren't affected by heartbleed would complain bitterly if they had to renew their certs due to revocation-by-tag ...)11:23
wpwrakand fireworks at samsung cause the worlds samsung devices to fail: http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/20/samsung-com-outage-sds-fire/11:30
wpwrakthose ads for moving stuff into the cloud are almost writing themselves ;-)11:31
DocScrutinizer05I just came up with a (life) risk assessment unit for missions (like to compare mars mission to jogging): LD50/99, LD for Lethal Duration. A jogger has probably 70(-age)/100(-age), means of a test group of joggers 50% are dead with 70 years old, 99% are dead with 100y12:28
wpwraka common metric is LD<percentage>/<duration>, meaning that, after exposure to ingredient X, <percentage>% of the test subject population have perished within <duration>12:32
wpwraka bit more meaningful than the ordinary LD50 that doesn't take into account time12:33
whitequarkwpwrak: you'd make a good GLaDOW12:33
whitequark*GLaDOS12:33
whitequark"test subject population", hehe12:33
wpwrak(-:C12:33
DocScrutinizer05>>The big question left? Why a fire at one location seemed to have such a large affect on the company's devices and services<<12:34
DocScrutinizer05bwahaha12:34
DocScrutinizer05those guys are so damn pretty clueless12:34
DocScrutinizer05about how android works12:34
wpwrak"because we don't know how to design such a thing"12:34
DocScrutinizer05or rather, how smartphone shit in general works12:34
wpwrakand it gets better: the whole thing is completely useless: http://www.sodnpoo.com/posts.xml/spoofing_the_samsung_smart_tv_internet_check.xml12:35
DocScrutinizer05or rahter, how sw licensing of non-FOSS stuff works today12:35
wpwrakit's basically a "ping - can anyone hear me" ? doesn't carry any real information12:35
DocScrutinizer05LOL12:35
wpwraki think it nicely demonstrates how product obsolescence will be implemented in the not too distant future12:36
DocScrutinizer05bzzz false: *got* implemented during last few years already12:36
DocScrutinizer05Nokia HARM did it12:36
wpwraki mean we're already getting stories of this and that cloud-based or internet-centric company folding and customers left with mere days to save whatever they can12:37
DocScrutinizer05even Nokia fremantle maps already did it12:37
DocScrutinizer05and seems even jolla does it12:37
wpwraksounds like a must-have feature for neo900 :)12:38
DocScrutinizer05"no registration to our server, no authentication on app startup, ->no app starting up"12:38
DocScrutinizer05"no software update of course"12:39
wpwrakeach time you unlock it, it pings joerg personally. if he's asleep (hah, fat chance for that) or otherwise unreachable, you're denied service :)12:39
DocScrutinizer05hehe sounds like a dream. A nightmare12:39
DocScrutinizer05for +me*12:39
wpwraki kinda wonder why the iGadgets don't do that. perhaps Jobs wasn't that much of a control freak after all ;-)12:39
DocScrutinizer05smarter such schemes include a timer that allows using the app for a certain timespan without connectivity, after a successful authentication and "lease" from the company central scrutinizer server12:41
wpwrakheaven no. they use that in DNS ! no no, we have to find some proprietary concept12:43
DocScrutinizer05basically jobs been too early for that scheme to fly.that's why iOS changed from initial concept which been 100% web apps towards a 99% autonomous architecture that actually stores stuff locally and doesn't need 24/7 connectivity to work12:43
DocScrutinizer05nowadays nobody is concerned about 24/7 connectivity (or the lack thereof) anymore. after all when you got no carrier signal for your phone, you also don't need your contacts and prolly neither your calendar or whatever12:44
DocScrutinizer05so more and more system architectures depend on 24/7 connectivity. For sure stuff like maps apps do, to authenticate to the map server every time, even while the tiles are maybe already in local cache12:46
DocScrutinizer05I bet siri and the similar crap on winphone is also an off-board aka web service12:47
DocScrutinizer05aka client server architecture12:47
DocScrutinizer05we're going back to the times of mainframes12:48
DocScrutinizer05connectivity becoming a single point of failure12:49
DocScrutinizer05when IMAP got invented?12:49
whitequark'8612:50
wpwrakNSA and samsung are doing a good job at making people aware that this may not be such a great idea. of course, it'll take a while and more incidents to sink in12:50
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: see, the idea lingers around forever12:51
DocScrutinizer05or rather, for 25 years12:51
whitequarkIMAP is not bad. it surely beats POP3 in a world where I may want to access my mail from more than a single device12:54
wpwrakand you can always use it as if it was pop12:54
whitequarka good IMAP client would cache the data locally, like the android one does12:55
DocScrutinizer05in times where literally nobody even in developer community had the "joy" to work on a terminal connected to a mainframe infra via a pay-per-minute dialup connection, and everybody enjoys 24/7-always-on-connectivity at flat rate, it will take a bit longer until things change for the better again. right now they are changing for the worse, at ever increasing speed12:56
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: (us like POP) that's astonishingly difficult and cumbersome12:56
DocScrutinizer05use*12:57
whitequarkpointless in the first place12:57
whitequarkI use IMAP because I *want* my mail to be stored remotely12:57
DocScrutinizer05yeah, pointless as long as your mail server offer proper POP312:57
whitequarkI don't have a desktop, and every device I have on myself, i.e. every device I have, is expendable12:57
DocScrutinizer05alas some server admins decide to deliberately not offer POP12:58
DocScrutinizer05in POP I can opt for "leave mail on server" and "delete mail on server after expiry of guard period"12:59
DocScrutinizer05in IMAP moving a mail from IMAP dir to a local dir on one server really creates a cascade of funny events13:01
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i remember the modem days very well :) even built my own 300 bps acoustic coupler. used first with the VC-20 (VIC-20), then used the VC-20 as "gateway" to my CPC-464. the CPC had lots of memory and a good resolution, while the VC-20 had a UART ...13:01
DocScrutinizer05s/server/client13:01
wpwrakfetchmail handles imap just fine. that's how i get all my mails. (and i keep a read-only copy of everything on the server)13:04
DocScrutinizer05err wut?13:07
DocScrutinizer05how would you do that for the average web.de or gmx.net server ?13:07
DocScrutinizer05the latest when I have to keep my /trash/SAPM/ dir on the IMAP server and local spamassassin in cooperation with the mail client has to upload mails to that SPAM dir, I lose my humor with IMAP13:08
DocScrutinizer05then there are MLs. I got ML: business, f, g, h, private. I got three mail clients on 3 device. client 1 has business, f,g, h in 4 dirs, client 2 has all 5 in separate dirs, client 3 has f,g,h,private all in one common ML dir13:13
wpwrakwell, i have my own server. my server, my rules :)13:13
DocScrutinizer05real fun with IMAP13:14
wpwrakand yes, if you need to share mails between devices, imap (and leaving them on the server) is one of the few choices you have13:15
DocScrutinizer05nah, POP3 and leaving them on the server is the better choice13:15
whitequarkdoes POP3 even have folders?13:16
DocScrutinizer05leaving them on the server untl either the "slowest" of your clinets downloaded them, or alternatively exoire them after maybe 2 weeks or somesuch13:17
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: huh? 13:17
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I get a new client, do I also need to manually organize all my mail on it?13:17
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: luckily it doesn't, it has no such idiotic concept of it's-like-webdav-but-not-really13:18
whitequarkso yes13:18
whitequarkI can't classify your system as anything but "incredibly moronic"13:18
whitequarkso no*. anyway13:18
whitequarkit's unusable13:18
DocScrutinizer05whatever it is for you, for me it works way better than any fucking imap forcing me to have identical dir structures on all my clients13:19
DocScrutinizer05"OMG that's unbearable, I have to *choose* what to do"13:19
whitequarkexactly13:20
wpwrakslavery is freedom :)13:20
whitequarktoo much pointless work. sure, if you like bureaucracy and useless shuffling of documents, it will probably fit well13:20
DocScrutinizer05how about you two guys found a club "slaves of IMAP"?13:20
DocScrutinizer05IMAP for sure is great when you wanna waer another "smart"phone of the day with the right color, every day of the week, and still all shall look identical by their UX13:22
DocScrutinizer05I defitely need a different mail config on my smartphone than on my laptop than on my workstation13:23
DocScrutinizer05definitely*13:23
wpwrakmy use of imap comes from openmoko. anyway, it doesn't matter to fetchmail. all i want are my mails :)13:24
DocScrutinizer05I know, that's incredibly moronic, since ... who's going to distinguish between work and private nowadays. Particularly on their IT13:25
DocScrutinizer05</sarcasm>13:25
DocScrutinizer05</sarcasm> (another one, so i really get rid of this huge amount)13:26
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: if I had only one client (or MTA) then I wouln't even think about IMAP, it's just another protocol to transfer mail then. But then, why would I need IMAP then, at all?13:27
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: and yes, it's been the damn OM server that never did (and doesn't) offer POP3, and it's the only account where I have to mess around with this friggin IMAP13:30
DocScrutinizer05and the only account that gave me like half a dozen mega disasters during the years I'm using it, from all mails getting deleted from server thanks to an oppsie on one braindamaged client, to all mails which stay on server probably getting leaked to the hacker who rooted the box13:32
DocScrutinizer05no hacker ever rooted any of my local machines, neither any of my exposed boxes (though those don't hold any mails except maybe those of last 10 min)13:33
DocScrutinizer05and whn somebody now says "you should accept encrypted mail only, so you don't care when it gets stolen from the IMAP server which you can't control or administrate" then I gonna wake up my killer bat army and send them out to him as soon as sun sets13:35
whitequarknah, there's a simpler way13:36
DocScrutinizer05don't use mail, yeah13:36
whitequarkI never agree to *collect* my mail from anyone else's server; I just set up a redirect from there to a single point that I own13:36
DocScrutinizer05sure, create a single point of failure. Nicely defeats the purpose of having multiple accounts13:37
DocScrutinizer05and guess what, OM mailserver didn't even offer mail forwarding13:38
whitequarkit's a single point where I set up filters *once*, set up backups *once*, and point all my clients to it *once*13:38
whitequarkand the downtime though the last three years was prolly lower than that of GMail13:38
DocScrutinizer05sorry, can't help but notice you don't get it13:39
DocScrutinizer05I also have a single point of setting up my filters: the clinet to which the filters apply13:40
wpwrakwhitequark: where's the constant struggle to fill your life with purpose ? and see, you can't even get a good rant out of it ! look at DocScrutinizer05, he's been going on about this for an hours or two. that's how the experts do it :)13:41
DocScrutinizer05I however can ask wpwrak to send the mail to my web.de account when OM once more cocks up or his account is messed up and doesn't send stuff to OM, or whatever the problem13:41
whitequarklol13:41
DocScrutinizer05well, an hour is a mild punishment for "moronic"13:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: you also don't get it, my mailserver is infrastructure that *I* control13:42
whitequarkand in the unlikely case that Linode fails, it has daily backups to a different country, continent and company13:43
DocScrutinizer05usually I won't stop until the other part admits that their mental capacity is insufficient to judge which of my actions are moronic13:43
whitequarkwhich can be restored in under a hour13:43
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: I well got that, but that tells me what? to move my web.de account to your server. or what?13:44
whitequarkto your own, I guess13:44
DocScrutinizer05well, than thanks for this moronic suggestion, since I can't guarantee the uptime of any such server either13:45
DocScrutinizer05then*13:45
DocScrutinizer05and I can't move my web.de account to somewhere else, since... well I bet you can imagine why13:45
DocScrutinizer05if not, do w a `whois web.de`13:46
whitequarkit reduces the possible range of problems to two: 1. server went down entirely, 2. you broke it. from... (amount of accounts × amount of idiotic decisions owners of servers behind those accounts make)13:46
DocScrutinizer05aha13:47
whitequarkI don't think I touched my mail config in four years or so. that deals with point 2.13:47
DocScrutinizer05this finally gave away that you don't get it13:47
DocScrutinizer05of course a web.de -> my_client is much less stable and more prone to downtimes for whatever reason than a web.de->my_MX_server->my_client13:49
DocScrutinizer05</irony>13:49
DocScrutinizer05since it seems that's needed to not let a chance somebody thinks this been serious13:50
DocScrutinizer05and you call my management "moronic"??13:51
whitequarkin my case, the server is anything but forwarder. it is an aggregator13:51
whitequarkonce I have mail there, I know that I will be able to access it no matter what web.de decides to do with their boxes tomorrow13:51
whitequarkand I will be able to access it even if I get robbed of every single device I have13:51
DocScrutinizer05so what? what do you think I know about +my* mail, sitting comfortably local on my HDD I can see down there?13:52
whitequarkuntil said HDD chokes and dies13:52
DocScrutinizer05I don't get robbed13:52
DocScrutinizer05*shrug*13:52
whitequarklol, life advice by DocScrutinizer05. "-- how to get rich? -- start by not being poor"13:52
DocScrutinizer05thanks for the talk, had a lot of laughs! no for something more meaningful, like watching TV13:53
wpwrakhmm, ubuntu stopped launching ntpd. how quaint. so i've been living a few minutes in the past for the last weeks.13:53
whitequarkwpwrak: why do you even *use* that13:53
wpwrakbecause i like to have accurate time ?13:53
whitequarkdo you feel like not enough of your searches go to google and now voluntarily send even more to amazon? ;)13:53
whitequarkno, ubuntu13:53
wpwrakoh, it's reasonably painless to use. grew tires of days of compilation of gentoo, and eventually find that, if i didn't upgrade often enough, the chain would be broken and my old systems wuold become completely un-upgradeable13:55
whitequarkwhy not plain debian?13:55
wpwrakand what would go to amazon ?13:55
DocScrutinizer05(robbed) your problem when you rely on a remote box for your sole means of "data security". I use proper *local* and *remote* backup schemes for that, I only seen incidences so far with damn IMAP and damn OM server13:55
wpwrakat least back then debian didn't have so much stuff and what they had was often ancient13:56
whitequarkwpwrak: I find debian testing reasonably stable and up-to-date13:56
whitequarkcan't really recall the last time they broke something for me13:56
wpwrakwell, one of these days ubuntu will pass my pain threshold. but i'm not all that eager anymore to migrate. it does get a little boring after the first dozen times ...13:57
wpwrakwell, half a dozen. i think my sequence was: linus boot+root -> MCL -> SLS -> Slackware -> Red Hat (for a long time) -> (tried Debian on some systems) -> Gentoo (for a long time) -> Ubuntu (for a long time)13:59
DocScrutinizer05gentoo vs buntkuh, seems ther are at least a *few* quite reasonable alternatives in between13:59
wpwraki guess after the mail rant we'll now get the distro tantrum ...14:01
DocScrutinizer05btw to poll OM mailserver from my own box, i had to move account credentials for logging in to a *commercial* mission-critical infra to a box exposed to the net. I guess doing so would be enough of a reason to get fired instantly14:01
DocScrutinizer05while OM infra isn't mission critical anymore, due to lack of mission, it been when I got thta account14:03
DocScrutinizer05that*14:03
Action: DocScrutinizer05 just found a good new way to test qualification of applicants for a sysop position14:04
qi-bot[commit] Paul Cercueil: Allow to map actions to keyboard keys and joystick keys at the same time (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/5fa891914:09
DocScrutinizer05(gentoo vs buntkuh) I'm far from suggesting opensuse (though I think it's a great distro). There are others too, like fedora, centOS, a 1 billion users on debian...14:10

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