| azonenberg | Screw thread of some sort to focus the two cameras to each other | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| azonenberg | two scopes* | 00:00 |
| azonenberg | then one vertical focuser to focus them onto the mask | 00:00 |
| glowplug | 17" LCD and a mini ARM computer for the cam outputs would work well. | 00:00 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, you dont need a lot of horsepower | 00:00 |
| glowplug | Adjustment is with manual micrometers correct? | 00:00 |
| glowplug | If thats true then you need zero horsepower. Haha | 00:00 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 00:01 |
| azonenberg | The wafer is just on an x-y-theta stage | 00:01 |
| azonenberg | for mass production you'd need machine vision | 00:01 |
| azonenberg | but this isnt :p | 00:01 |
| glowplug | We have scipy for that anyways. =) | 00:02 |
| Sync_ | open cv ftw :D | 00:02 |
| glowplug | That too. =) | 00:02 |
| azonenberg | Yes, but that would need more CPU is what i mean | 00:02 |
| glowplug | Absolutely. | 00:02 |
| glowplug | The developer station would need an upgrade at that point. Haha | 00:03 |
| glowplug | I have an idea. | 00:03 |
| glowplug | The VESA table mounts for LCD's | 00:03 |
| glowplug | We can mount the LCD, the exposer and the optical unit each on a VESA mount. | 00:04 |
| glowplug | Then everything can be locked down to a table without any special fabrication. | 00:04 |
| glowplug | http://bit.ly/WUdWx1 | 00:06 |
| glowplug | Place sample. Rough alignment. Swing the optic unit over. Do your final alignment. Swing it back. Swing in LED panel. Hit blastoff. Swing it back. Take sample + enjoy. =) | 00:07 |
| azonenberg | oh and the rpi would have to also have GPIOs for the LEDs | 00:08 |
| azonenberg | and a timer | 00:08 |
| azonenberg | but thats trivial | 00:08 |
| glowplug | The mounts would be clamped to the rear of the desk with the sample clamped down to the front. | 00:08 |
| glowplug | What do you think? | 00:09 |
| Sync_ | I think it is not time to think about that | 00:10 |
| Sync_ | but it seems it is a good idea | 00:10 |
| glowplug | Holy shit sync_ thinks I had a good idea! | 00:11 |
| glowplug | And it was the damn stupid VESA mount one. | 00:11 |
| glowplug | Take what I can get... | 00:11 |
| Sync_ | actually, I'm not here to diss your ideas ): | 00:11 |
| glowplug | I know. =) | 00:11 |
| glowplug | You were totally right about the projection litho. | 00:11 |
| glowplug | Thats for superhumans. | 00:12 |
| glowplug | And right about the furnace too. $1,000 is actually not a bad price. | 00:13 |
| glowplug | One thing I still think should be DIY is the optical encoder. I'm still going to give it a shot maybe I can save us ~$200. | 00:13 |
| glowplug | Depositing of silicon dioxide is done in the evap? | 00:20 |
| azonenberg | Normaly people do PECVD | 00:21 |
| azonenberg | we have a couple of opions | 00:21 |
| Sync_ | you need to sputter that | 00:21 |
| azonenberg | options* | 00:21 |
| azonenberg | spin-on glass is one | 00:21 |
| azonenberg | RF sputtering of a glass target is another | 00:21 |
| glowplug | So thats the magnetron. | 00:21 |
| azonenberg | Reactive sputtering of Si with Ar + O2 plasma is another | 00:21 |
| glowplug | Alright just making sure I wasn't missing something important. Haha | 00:22 |
| glowplug | Wow manufacturer yields can typically be below 30%. | 00:23 |
| glowplug | This is a depressing business. | 00:23 |
| azonenberg | Yes, but thats for leading-edge stuff | 00:23 |
| azonenberg | they can be quite a bit higher for older-gen stuff | 00:23 |
| azonenberg | And these are for complex devices | 00:23 |
| glowplug | God point. | 00:23 |
| azonenberg | If we can make one NAND2 gate work on a 10um process from scratch i'll be really happy | 00:24 |
| glowplug | We are coming into the party at circa 1990 tech. | 00:24 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, if that | 00:24 |
| azonenberg | maybe 80s | 00:24 |
| glowplug | Haha. That is awesome. | 00:24 |
| azonenberg | I just want to make a board one day that has a custom flip-chip ASIC on it | 00:25 |
| glowplug | You mean this device here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CMOS_NAND.svg | 00:25 |
| azonenberg | even if it could be replaced by a few 7400 chips | 00:25 |
| azonenberg | And yeah | 00:25 |
| glowplug | So thats four contact pads and four transistors. | 00:25 |
| glowplug | I think we can pull that off. =) | 00:25 |
| azonenberg | Five contacts - inA, in B, power, ground, out | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | This is what your layout would look like roughly (actual photo) http://i.imgur.com/su94J06.jpg | 00:26 |
| glowplug | Ahh I see. | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | greenish is oxide over undoped Si | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | reddish is active area | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | yellow is poly for gates | 00:26 |
| glowplug | Ahah! That is much better. | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | metal has been removed already | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | So you'd have a strip on the top going from Vdd to the left side of the PMOS and from Vdd to the right side of the PMOS | 00:26 |
| azonenberg | then from Vss to the left side of the NMOS at bottom | 00:27 |
| azonenberg | then metal from the middle of the PMOS to the right of the NMOS is your output | 00:27 |
| azonenberg | and then the big squares on each piece of poly are where you'd hook up the inputs | 00:27 |
| azonenberg | The device in question btw is the RSA SecurID | 00:28 |
| azonenberg | its a 1-micron 2-metal process | 00:28 |
| glowplug | Haha | 00:28 |
| glowplug | No way they only used 1 micron. Thats sweet. | 00:28 |
| azonenberg | Yes they did | 00:28 |
| glowplug | We can totally match that. 8) | 00:28 |
| azonenberg | i have full die images at transistor resolution | 00:28 |
| azonenberg | of every layer | 00:28 |
| glowplug | Haha that is epic. | 00:28 |
| glowplug | I haven't searched yet. | 00:29 |
| glowplug | Are there example masks for these devices? | 00:29 |
| azonenberg | Full masks are rarely published | 00:29 |
| azonenberg | a few shops like Alliance have open source standard cell libraries | 00:29 |
| azonenberg | with layouts for single gates you can study | 00:29 |
| azonenberg | oh, and look up the GDS-II file format | 00:29 |
| azonenberg | it's the industry standard for masks | 00:30 |
| azonenberg | so whatever laser system we make will need to read gds files | 00:30 |
| glowplug | http://www.cogenda.com/images/gds2mesh/na2_x1_layout_small.jpg | 00:30 |
| Sync_ | or some gds to gcode thing | 00:30 |
| azonenberg | It may not do so directly | 00:30 |
| azonenberg | another good file format to use natively is gerber | 00:30 |
| azonenberg | you could probably convert gds to gerber | 00:31 |
| azonenberg | but if you want to be compatible with IC layout CAD tools we need to eventually be able to read GDS | 00:31 |
| glowplug | http://sourceforge.net/projects/gds3d/ | 00:32 |
| glowplug | http://opencircuitdesign.com/verilog/index.html | 00:33 |
| glowplug | Lots of interesting stuff in here. http://vlsiarch.ecen.okstate.edu/flows/ | 00:40 |
| glowplug | A full license of LayoutEditor is $1500. Ouch. | 00:48 |
| azonenberg | Glade is free but not open source | 00:48 |
| azonenberg | that's what i've been using | 00:48 |
| azonenberg | it is almost certainly not good enough for anything huge, it seems to be mostly a viewer | 00:48 |
| azonenberg | but it does exist | 00:48 |
| glowplug | http://opencircuitdesign.com/magic/ | 00:49 |
| glowplug | That is free. And works. And is very old. | 00:49 |
| azonenberg | magic? Yes | 00:49 |
| azonenberg | its ancient | 00:49 |
| glowplug | Sounds like a perfect match for our tech. Haha | 00:49 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 00:49 |
| azonenberg | good point :P | 00:49 |
| Sync_ | magic is also still developed | 00:50 |
| Sync_ | I know someone who made quite a large asic with it | 00:51 |
| glowplug | I'm sold (pun intended). 8) | 00:51 |
| azonenberg | Sync_: how large? and what process? | 00:52 |
| azonenberg | can it do extractions too? | 00:52 |
| azonenberg | or just layout | 00:52 |
| Sync_ | oh I dunno | 00:52 |
| azonenberg | and does it include P&R and synthesis stuff? | 00:52 |
| Sync_ | no | 00:52 |
| Sync_ | iirc | 00:52 |
| glowplug | It looks like it can do extractions. | 00:52 |
| azonenberg | i mean for initial designs we wont be using hdl | 00:53 |
| azonenberg | it'll be manual drawing | 00:53 |
| glowplug | Timberwolf can be used for place and route. | 00:53 |
| glowplug | Version 6.3 is GPL | 00:53 |
| Sync_ | I guess it's not large for todays standards but it was a video processor | 00:53 |
| azonenberg | Nontrivial | 00:54 |
| glowplug | video processor! | 00:54 |
| Sync_ | yeah it was not something really simple | 00:54 |
| glowplug | Good enough for me. Haha | 00:54 |
| glowplug | This site has everything we need. | 00:55 |
| glowplug | http://opencircuitdesign.com/verilog/index.html | 00:56 |
| glowplug | Even some things we wont need for years. | 00:56 |
| Sync_ | azonenberg: iirc it was nmos | 00:57 |
| glowplug | Our goal is CMOS devices? | 00:58 |
| azonenberg | CMOS would be nice | 00:59 |
| azonenberg | mems comes first | 00:59 |
| Sync_ | I need to get me some wafers from work | 01:05 |
| glowplug | By the way my name is Adam. I know Andrew now. Sync_ ? | 01:06 |
| B0101 | I don't think oxides will grow on Silicon wafers that are put in desiccator bags, will they? | 01:38 |
| azonenberg | you'll still have native oxide | 01:38 |
| azonenberg | it wont be thick, but it'll be there | 01:38 |
| Sync_ | iirc 15nm or so at room temp | 01:42 |
| azonenberg | Homebrew CMOS and MEMS foundry design | Wiki: http://homecmos.drawersteak.com/wiki/Main_Page | Repository: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/homecmos-logs/ | 01:50 |
| Sync_ | ah 1.5nm seems to be the equilibrium | 01:56 |
| Sync_ | so I had at least the right number! | 01:56 |
| B0101 | http://www.instructables.com/id/Simple-DIY-Vacuum-Chamber-and-Pump/ - I wonder if this DIY Vacuum pump is good enough for RIE | 01:57 |
| azonenberg | No | 02:01 |
| azonenberg | aspirators are limited to the vapor pressure of water | 02:02 |
| azonenberg | and the chamber gets full of water vapor at that pressure | 02:02 |
| Sync_ | also water everywhere | 02:03 |
| Sync_ | I actually had a closed loop water aspirator for a certain project | 02:03 |
| Sync_ | hm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsBXixItlAI oh god what | 02:11 |
| glowplug | Have you guys seen this? | 02:22 |
| glowplug | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcKwOo7dmM | 02:22 |
| B0101 | seen | 02:24 |
| glowplug | I knew about jeri but I haven't seen these videos yet. | 02:29 |
| glowplug | Have we asked if shes interested in helping? | 02:29 |
| glowplug | Spin coating with a CPU fan. Holy shit. Haha | 02:33 |
| glowplug | And it looks like she has a glass tube in the furnace. | 02:34 |
| Sync_ | quartz | 02:36 |
| Sync_ | they actually come like that | 02:36 |
| glowplug | Which appears to be a grill. | 02:36 |
| glowplug | Thats not a commercial furnace is it? | 02:37 |
| Sync_ | I guess it is | 02:38 |
| glowplug | Hmm | 02:38 |
| Sync_ | haha holy shit her diode is bad | 02:39 |
| glowplug | All the devices were pretty bad. But they were made without any litho. | 02:41 |
| glowplug | Extremely impressive. | 02:41 |
| Sync_ | yeah well a mosfet is extremely easy to make | 02:43 |
| Sync_ | because it just needs a channel | 02:43 |
| Sync_ | and metal | 02:43 |
| B0101 | hmmm, to make an electrical field, the potential difference between 2 charged plates is inversely proportional to the distance between my plates, am I right? | 02:48 |
| azonenberg | I've talked briefly with jeri | 02:49 |
| azonenberg | She was surprised that nobody had copied her setup yet | 02:49 |
| glowplug | I'm surprised too. | 02:49 |
| azonenberg | BTW, my guess is that one of the reasons for her trouble was the complete lack of attention paid to things like metal contamination | 02:49 |
| glowplug | We need to get our asses in gear. | 02:49 |
| azonenberg | i bet her stuff was loaded with sodium | 02:49 |
| glowplug | I'm sure she knows that too. But the fact is she has a working device. | 02:50 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 02:50 |
| azonenberg | But an RCA clean isnt that hard to do | 02:50 |
| glowplug | I think she would be interested in collaborating if we can prove we are serious and get a working device as well. | 02:50 |
| azonenberg | Maybe | 02:51 |
| azonenberg | We can definitely try and pick her brain | 02:51 |
| azonenberg | I'll ping her on FB once we get some more serious progress | 02:51 |
| glowplug | Sounds like a plan. | 02:55 |
| glowplug | http://www.kysanelectronics.com/Products/Detail.php?recordID=2055 | 03:31 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, geared motors of that level exist | 03:53 |
| azonenberg | but they're not necewssarily precise | 03:53 |
| azonenberg | i bet the backlash is terrible | 03:53 |
| glowplug | Probably better than my diy geargoxes though. | 03:53 |
| glowplug | Did you have any gearboxes in mind? | 03:55 |
| glowplug | Here are the insides of the Kysan motor. http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoeken/sets/72157612405194866/ | 04:01 |
| Action: B0101 seriously never thought that sending a 22 GB backup file over a local network would be difficult | 13:58 | |
| glowplug | Do you have linux systems or is the transfer CIFS? | 15:54 |
| Sync_ | azonenberg: my prof said use quartz, it is the easiest and safest | 16:53 |
| glowplug | A quartz tube for the furnace? | 18:36 |
| glowplug | Some interesting information. First on the gearing for the x,y stage motor. http://www.zincland.com/hypocycloid/ | 19:10 |
| glowplug | And also this motor controller is interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9PyQBrqR4E | 19:12 |
| glowplug | Standard ungeared BLDC motor spinning at 10rpm constant. | 19:12 |
| glowplug | If you combine the two you get .0016 r/s. With a .5 pitch leadscrew (standard micrometer) which is .5mm /r or .0008mm per second at the lowest speed. 800nm. =) | 19:22 |
| glowplug | This is of course assuming the slowest we can turn a BLDC motor is 10RPM. I can't find any examples of slower but it can probably be done. | 19:22 |
| glowplug | At any rate that makes the motor/gear assembly (not including leadscrew, nut, or encoder) about $15. The raw material for the acrylic cycloid gearbox and the cheap hobby outrunner. | 19:26 |
| azonenberg | Sync_: i'd use quartz for the actual wafer carrier | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | the question is whether alumina insulation on the furnace is dangerous | 21:21 |
| Sync_ | yeah I think not | 21:29 |
| Sync_ | if the carrier is quartz everything sould be fine | 21:29 |
| azonenberg | I wont even consider trying to clean my existing glassware | 21:37 |
| azonenberg | when i move to CMOS i'm buying all new fused quartz | 21:37 |
| azonenberg | and never handling it without gloves | 21:37 |
| Sync_ | the mbe chamber shat itself again :/ | 21:39 |
| Sync_ | at first the thickness monitor died | 21:39 |
| Sync_ | and now we have a short in the vacuum | 21:39 |
| glowplug | So I understand. The quartz carrier for the furnace is a cylinder correct? | 22:04 |
| Sync_ | no | 22:04 |
| Sync_ | http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/511892359/Clear_Quartz_Wafer_Carrier.jpg | 22:05 |
| glowplug | Ahh that is for doing multiple samples at once. Interesting. | 22:05 |
| glowplug | How much does that thing cost? | 22:06 |
| Sync_ | they should be fairly cheap | 22:07 |
| glowplug | I have been researching closed loop control of steppers and finally realized that the Mesa SoftDMC can do it with quadrature encoder input. | 22:12 |
| glowplug | And it can do two at the same time. | 22:12 |
| glowplug | I was totally wrong about the parallel port latency being too high for th encoders also. It is a severe bottleneck for high rpm operation but at low rpm's it is completely acceptable. | 23:05 |
| glowplug | http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders | 23:05 |
| --- Thu Mar 21 2013 | 00:00 | |
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