#homecmos IRC log for Tuesday, 2013-01-22

--- Tue Jan 22 201300:00
soul-dhey azonberg since i work at some some place with lots of broken stuff i stole some  chips to try to decap someday  http://i.imgur.com/BU3bZba.jpg but wonder if it's at all feasable :P  http://i.imgur.com/BU3bZba.jpg19:31
Sync_why not?19:32
soul-dlike maybe acid driping whilse using   hot  blow iron setup ?    well donno  don't have many tools :P19:33
Sync_then get some tools19:35
soul-ddon't have large bugets got a dremel though19:39
azonenbergsoul-d: well, that chip looks like a flip chip19:40
azonenbergso you're looking at the back of the silicon there19:40
azonenbergsoul-d: Do you have a hot plate, good ventilation, and access to "liquid fire" or other H2SO4 based drain cleaner?19:40
azonenbergand a glass container?19:40
azonenbergif so, it's most definitely feasible19:41
azonenbergthe bigger question isi f you can do it without killing yourself19:41
azonenbergbut that's not a question i can answer :P19:41
soul-dyes  got hot plate was already testing  a chip in h2so4   but cold is not  feasable i debunked that at least :P19:41
azonenbergcold h2so4 is not19:41
azonenbergnor cold 70% nitric19:41
soul-d1 month only  legs are rusted19:41
azonenbergfuming nitric, when cold, is doable19:41
azonenbergin a day or two it'll decap most small devices19:42
azonenbergI normally run sulfuric around 150-200C19:42
soul-dwell outside shed and got m3  abek filters19:42
azonenbergExpect heavy fumes, I recommend covering the beaker with something19:42
azonenbergto keep most of the vapor inside during the heating19:42
soul-ddon'thave watch glas though19:42
azonenbergThen you can let it cool to room temp before you remove the dies19:42
azonenbergWell, if you dont have a watch glass or fume hood19:43
azonenbergall i can say is "get one or the other"19:43
soul-ddouble beaker  seetup maybe  but  still cold outside to  so might check  around for that in meanwhile19:43
azonenbergthis is the level of fuming you can expect, it got even heavier after i took the pic19:44
soul-ddo  have  teabag type glas19:44
soul-das cover19:44
azonenberghttp://colossus.cs.rpi.edu/pictures/2013/January/01-10-2013%20-%20decapping/S7303110_sm.jpg is a long shot19:44
soul-dbut thats probably not  pyrex19:44
azonenbergjust after i turned the heat on19:44
azonenbergseen through the sash of the fume hood19:44
azonenberg(yay fume hoods)19:44
azonenbergalso, accidental self-portrait in the sash lol19:45
azonenbergyou can see some of my usual decapping attire19:45
azonenbergTyvek lab coat, norfoil gloves double-gloved with thin nitrile on the outside19:46
soul-donly have nitrill stuff gloves  and overall19:46
azonenbergnorfoil doesn't grip well19:46
azonenbergbut its super chemical resistant19:46
azonenbergso i put nitrile over it to avoid dropping stuff19:46
soul-dthese where the best acid  /cutting resitant ones at whare house19:46
soul-ddid you see that chick doing that stuff :P  tobad only few vids  but intresting stuff19:48
soul-dbut if normal ones are not organic  can oen do non organic leds at home ?19:49
soul-dshe ofcours used exotic    stuff  so do't really consider it  diy19:50
Sync_norfoil for h2so4 azonenberg? that is a bit paranoid19:51
azonenbergSync_: I have it19:52
azonenbergthe alternative is thin exam-style nitrile19:52
azonenbergso it seems silly not to use it19:52
azonenbergI bought it for HF19:52
soul-d like trow away  box of nitrile  those blue ones ?19:52
azonenbergI wouldnt trust that for hot h2so419:52
azonenbergBut if i wear it over the norfoil it gives me a much better grip19:52
azonenbergsticky rather than slippery19:53
azonenbergand also provides some puncture resistance19:54
azonenbergnorfoil is known to be weak against sharpness19:54
soul-di don't like to enclosed either makes hand sweat to much19:55
azonenbergWell, I've never injured myself in the lab yet19:55
soul-dso like the bigger ones better anyhow also long sleeven like half way up arm19:55
azonenbergI plan to keep it that way19:55
soul-dyeah same19:55
Sync_I have lots of etch marks on my hand19:56
azonenbergAnd I tend to favor engineering controls over PPE when possible19:56
azonenberghence the fume hood19:56
soul-dstill have  some unindetiefied liquid leftover  from   no generation :P19:56
soul-dlike the hcl  kno3 copper mixter19:56
hozerso how did all of you outfit your labs?19:57
azonenberg" Good for most hazardous chemicals. Poor fit (Note: Dexterity can be partially regained by using a  heavier weight Nitrile glove over the Norfoil/Silver Shield glove. "19:57
Sync_I also have some spots where hot NaOH tried to soap my skin19:58
hozerI'm thinking one of these days I'll need to pick up a fume hood from a university surplus sale and take it out to the farm19:58
azonenberghozer: I built mine19:58
azonenbergducted fan and some pieces of plastic19:58
soul-dbut id be more woried  like splashes on  clothes  shoes then   spilling on gloves19:58
azonenbergi haven't had it officially certified or anything but it's kept everything I use in it below oder threshold19:58
azonenbergacetone, IPA, hot HCl, etc19:58
azonenbergsoul-d: My lab coat hangs down to knee level19:59
azonenbergwhich is well below the level of the hood19:59
soul-dyeah should order a few  can't be that expensive19:59
azonenbergI got a case of 2519:59
azonenbergdirt cheap19:59
Sync_hm, acetone and ipa, yeah one should probably care more about those19:59
azonenbergi'd care more about the hot HCl20:00
azonenberganyway, i've never been able to smell any of them20:01
azonenbergand the PEL for all of them, according to MSDS, is well above the odor threshold20:01
azonenbergso if i cant smell it then it's well within safe limits20:02
hozerSync_: are you more of the if you can't smell it it's not working crowd?20:03
Sync_but I gotta say, that I can differentiate between different car working fluids by their taste20:03
azonenbergi like my lungs the way they are, turned on20:03
azonenbergand working normally20:03
Sync_also different brands of gasoline based on how they burn on the skin20:03
azonenbergyeah, not me20:03
soul-dwell my lungs suck :(20:04
azonenbergthis is why i'm glad my former lab partner is no longer around here20:04
azonenbergout on the west coast where if he blows himself up i'm safely out of range in NY :p20:04
hozerSync_: that's kinda like me checking sorghum cane for sugar content by taste20:04
Sync_as if that is going to harm you azonenberg20:05
hozerSync_: I should see if I can determine ethanol concentration faster by skin burn than messing with a density hygrometer20:05
azonenbergi just mean i wasnt a fan of his approach to lab safety20:05
hozerMy rule is I'll only taste a chemical if I grew the biomass feedstock myself20:06
soul-dim messy maybe but at least i wanna be safe sorta :P20:06
Sync_well I can differentiate between e0 e5 e10 and e8520:06
hozerI'd be fine with that if I could get rid of the crappy petro-gasoline20:06
Sync_and between different engine oils, ATF, brake fluid, coolant and such20:07
hozerI was wondering if I could get the ATF to let me use ammonia as a denaturant instead of petro-crap20:07
Sync_you might want to use FeCl320:07
Sync_or mek20:07
hozererr ATF <- US alcohol tobacco and firearms. We have to make alcohol 'unfit for human consumption' to use as fuel20:08
azonenbergor you can have your fuel taxed as an alcoholic beverage20:08
azonenbergyoru choice20:08
hozerAlthough it would be an amusing stunt to run a car on food-grade (and taxed) alcohol20:09
soul-dhow long did a hot run take azonenberg ?  order of min's  or hours or heating ?20:09
azonenbergsoul-d: 20 minuts or so once it ogt hot20:09
Sync_yeah mek makes it unfit for human use20:09
azonenbergmy hot plate takes like an hour to go from 0 to 150C20:10
hozerSync_: can you differentiate diesel from biodiesel20:10
Sync_yes, engine works or engine broken20:10
soul-doh i got one of  those cheap  things    700W20:10
hozerhuh? what crappy engine do you have that biodiesel breaks it :P20:10
Sync_you cannot really run biodiesel in commonrail engines because of the lubrication properties20:10
soul-dmistakenly left it on power once   and those temp things turned on so i have powerd the thing for like  long time during a winter period20:11
soul-dbut probably only takes  few mins to heat up20:11
hozerSync_: any way to alter something I can grow on a farm to have the proper lubrication?20:11
Sync_you need the real deal20:12
Sync_or run a gasoline engine20:12
hozerso what needs to change, the injectors?20:12
Sync_the high pressure pump20:12
hozerah, they get to like 5000psi for common rail, right?20:12
hozerso, either I have to replace injection pumps and add fuel tank heaters, or figure out how to denature ethanol with something I grow20:13
hozerI suppose pyrolysis oil is nice and unfit for human consumption20:14
soul-dadd monsanto round up20:16
soul-dbut then people behing the car might drop  from bicicle :P20:17
hozersoul-d: HAH. Unfortunately the market seems to think roundup is quite safe to spray everywhere20:17
soul-dyah scary20:18
Sync_hozer: you cannot replace them20:18
Sync_because there are no pumps that can handle biodiesel20:18
hozerNow what I really want to figure out is how to refine high-purity silicon from the silica in sorghum leaves20:18
hozerSync_: geez, someone should be able to engineer a damn pump that works in B10020:18
Sync_they all work on the verge of the oilfilm breaking20:18
hozerwell, maybe I just need a oil feedstock that has higher film strength ;)20:18
hozeror older engines...20:19
Sync_yes, fossil diesel20:19
Sync_I don't like bio fuels20:19
hozerI don't see any pumpjacks on my farm20:19
Sync_get one20:19
hozertherefore I don't like petro-crap :P20:19
Sync_also diesel comes out of the petrol station20:19
hozerwell, if I had one of these.. http://windfuels.com/ I'd start using diesel again20:20
Sync_if you run an old diesel there won't be a problem20:20
hozerguestimates are that project is about $10 million from producing a pilot plant20:20
Sync_biofuels are not better than fossil fuels imho20:21
hozerI have a farm, tell me where to get fuel that I can see the entire process :P20:21
azonenbergsure they are, they make treehuggers happy20:21
Sync_why do you want such fuel hozer?20:22
Sync_yeah azonenberg but hurt the environment more than just burning fossils20:22
azonenbergOTOH, fossil fuels will eventually run out20:25
azonenbergthats a fact20:25
azonenbergand environmentally friendly or not, we need a replacement when that happens20:25
Sync_yes but that will take some while20:27
Sync_eventually we'll liquify coal again WW2 style20:27
Sync_but until then I just fill my car/bike up and hit the road20:29
soul-dyeah someone should invent  startrek teleporter/replicator already  been long enough now20:30
Sync_that takes all the fun out of traveling20:31
soul-dwell first heating experiment went well   stiring in some black goo  now  taste bit bitter though20:51
hozerSync_: for the same reason I want to fabricate silicon.. I think I can do it more effectively for my own needs than buying it from someone else21:07
hozerfor the silicon, I want to be able to fabricate replacment engine controllers for 30 year old farm equipment21:08
Sync_megasquirt them21:25
Action: soul-d adds note to self if azon sugests fume hood it's probably wise to listen :P also the tea bag thing made condensate drip outside on hot plate so had to turn it around steaming acid all over the place21:25
hozerSync_: sure, but where do I get the silicon for the megasquirt :P21:26
Sync_companies offer it21:28
Sync_you are not going to be more efficient than large scale industrial processes.21:28
Sync_not for fuel, not for sillicon21:28
hozerthis isn't about efficiency, it's about being able to fabricate a chip on short notice because it's not made anymore and I can fabricate it myself faster than tracking it down in a warehouse21:30
hozercase in point: We had a bearing go out on the combine.21:30
Sync_this is not possible with both fuel and microchips21:30
hozerWe could wait 3 days for the 'factory dealer part' to get shipped to the dealer, then drive 50 miles to the dealer21:30
hozerOR go to the local machine shop and have them weld up the shaft and turn it down21:31
hozerand we were back in the field at 20% of the time and 10% of the cost of the 'factory' part21:31
Sync_that is a whole different game21:32
hozerthe guy down the road from me had a research ethanol still and grew corn and made ethanol and ran a tractor on it21:32
hozerI really don't care how inefficient it is as long as I have the capability to make $10/gallon fuel from stuff I can grow on the farm21:33
hozeras for chips, if I can stock reconfigurable fpga-like stuff and a CNC setup to make circuit boards on-demand I can take a chip, make a PCB, and have a replacement controller for a grain dryer or gps or whatever faster than ordering commercial stuff21:34
hozerand I want to know that there's a fab someplace I can drive to on my farm-grown fuel that *makes* those FPGA-like chips so I can restock when needed21:35
hozerThe alternative is to keep lots of antique farm equipment that does not have any electronics in working order. Building my own fab line sounds like it will cost me less money and iron21:37
Sync_that is a tall plan21:38
hozerespecially since if I'm the one that knows how to replace the engine controller (or GPS-auto-steer) with something open-source, I can pick up equipment that's got good iron, but burned out electronics for scrap metal price21:38
hozerso I spend $5000 on a tractor with an engine controller that's burned up, and no replacements are available21:39
hozerand make a working tractor, and sell it, and I just made $50,00021:39
Sync_I'd just hook any off the shelf ecu to it21:40
Sync_way easier than trying to fabricate my own chips21:41
hozerif I start doing this a lot, and contract out some machine shops, pretty soon I've got enough capital to buy a bankrupt fab overseas and ship the equipment back to the farm21:41
hozerSync_: what off the shelf ecu would you recommend ;)21:42
hozerI still think it's a better investment to be able to fabricate the entire ECU and then sell it to everyone else (along with the silicon masks, if they want it)21:43
Sync_again, the megasquirt21:45
hozerso what silicon does it use21:46
Sync_that depends on which one you use21:48
azonenbergsoul-d: lol, you tried decapping without one?21:49
azonenbergI tried once or twice21:50
azonenbergNot doing it again21:50
azonenbergDon't say i didnt warn you :P21:50
soul-d:P  it;s cooling off  din't dare to keep heat on  only got it21:50
soul-ddonno if you call it boil   but chips where like dancing a bit21:51
Sync_then it is most efficient at heat transfer21:53
azonenbergsoul-d: Might have been boiling, might have been outgassing from the reaction21:54
azonenberghard to tell21:54
azonenbergoh, another word of advice for H2SO4 in particular21:54
azonenbergit tends to bubble21:54
azonenbergYour beaker should be sized 5-10x the liquid volume21:54
azonenbergto contain splashing/foaming21:55
soul-dbut donno  was using left over experiment h2so4  electrolised  copper sometime  so might have been diluted for that experiment donno left bottle unlabled to long so just labled it  h2so4 :P21:55
azonenbergThat could be an issue too21:56
azonenbergFor decapping you need extremely concentrated21:56
azonenbergJohn tells me etch rates go down exponentially as concenrtation drops below like 98%21:56
soul-dwell it still mesured 0 on ph paper21:56
azonenbergbut you can dilute concentrated H2SO4 a lot and still peg typical indicators21:57
soul-dk ill try  bottle next to  next time got  few hours of comunity service left21:57
soul-dso  2 more  afthernoons   intermitend day's   so hard to start up experimens this week  haven't done much programing either  i usualy forget time if i do those things22:00
--- Wed Jan 23 201300:00

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