--- Sun Nov 4 2012 | 00:00 | |
nmz787 | anyone need FIB work done? | 11:13 |
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nmz787 | anyone around? | 22:14 |
azonenberg | yep | 22:20 |
azonenberg | and no, i have no immediate short-term need for a FIB | 22:20 |
nmz787 | have you used one? | 22:22 |
azonenberg | No, I've done a decent amount of SEM work and am currently learning TEM though | 22:22 |
azonenberg | And I have things in mind that a FIB would be useful for but don't have the need just yet | 22:23 |
azonenberg | Do you own one or just have access to it? | 22:23 |
nmz787 | hmm, i'm thinking of using this FIB for making lithography masks for microfluidics | 22:23 |
azonenberg | I think that's massive overkill | 22:23 |
nmz787 | but I'm looking for a way to reduce the jagged edges since its raster CNC | 22:23 |
azonenberg | fluidic masks don't need to be that small | 22:23 |
azonenberg | so using a fib is a waste of time and money | 22:23 |
nmz787 | yeah but I think its cheap, and quick too | 22:24 |
azonenberg | cheap?? quick?? | 22:24 |
azonenberg | no way | 22:24 |
azonenberg | not any fib i've ever heard of | 22:24 |
azonenberg | if you want cheap, quick masks at micron-scale features check out a place like laserlab.com | 22:24 |
nmz787 | the guy who is gonna let me use his said free/cheap, and that he engraved the entire bible in about 1 sq inch in an afternoon | 22:24 |
nmz787 | yeah I think you may have told me about laser lab | 22:25 |
nmz787 | but even that will still have jagged edges I think | 22:25 |
nmz787 | so still would be interested in a way to blur that step | 22:25 |
azonenberg | Yes, but they're dirt cheap - like $50 for a mask the size of a large sheet of paper at 3.125um lambda | 22:25 |
azonenberg | Do you need truly rounded edges or are diagonals OK? | 22:25 |
azonenberg | 45deg bends etc | 22:25 |
nmz787 | right but for my fluidics a jagged edge can mean a local pressure drop which can them make salts fall out of solution and a seed crystal develop which will change the volume and restriction | 22:26 |
azonenberg | Also, look at the details of the etch processing etc after the mask | 22:26 |
nmz787 | well the edges between pixels is what i'm worried about | 22:26 |
azonenberg | Your pixels will be rounded, not perfectly square | 22:26 |
nmz787 | unless the beam is twice the dpi | 22:26 |
azonenberg | Choose a mask resolution smaller than your etch resolution | 22:27 |
nmz787 | i mean the beam is twice the diameter of center to center pixel spacing | 22:27 |
azonenberg | that's what it comes down to | 22:27 |
azonenberg | then you'll end up low-pass filtering off all of the high frequency noise | 22:27 |
nmz787 | so what do you mean my etch res? | 22:28 |
azonenberg | Well, the sum total of your photoresist, developing, and etch process will have some limiting resolution | 22:28 |
nmz787 | i was planning on doin contact lithography with photoresin, then curing, then pouring PDMS over that and peeling back when cured | 22:28 |
azonenberg | So what is the smallest feature you can actually produce doing this? | 22:28 |
nmz787 | maybe i could etch the cured resist | 22:29 |
nmz787 | then pour PDMS | 22:29 |
nmz787 | well the FIB can do like 20nm or something like that | 22:29 |
azonenberg | Yeah | 22:29 |
azonenberg | But you wont get 20nm with contact litho | 22:29 |
azonenberg | lol | 22:29 |
nmz787 | maybe smaller than that | 22:29 |
nmz787 | nah | 22:29 |
nmz787 | i only need maybe 1 micron | 22:29 |
azonenberg | So set your mask resolution to be maybe 500nm then | 22:29 |
nmz787 | but I'd like the edge between pixels to be smooth as possible | 22:29 |
nmz787 | ok so the FIB makes dots at 500nm spacing | 22:30 |
azonenberg | I am almost certain that if you do contact litho and have 500nm noise that it will blur out unless you deliberately try to get super sharp focus | 22:30 |
azonenberg | and for your needs, you dont want that | 22:30 |
nmz787 | what controls the blur | 22:30 |
nmz787 | i guess that's what i'm looking for | 22:30 |
azonenberg | Lots of factors, things like the photoresin you're using | 22:30 |
nmz787 | just diffraction? | 22:30 |
azonenberg | How long you develop | 22:30 |
azonenberg | Diffraction | 22:30 |
azonenberg | Distance from mask to wafer/substrate | 22:31 |
azonenberg | Thickness of your resist | 22:31 |
nmz787 | would there be more blur with longer or shorter develop time? | 22:31 |
azonenberg | If you develop longer, there will be a tendency to attack very thin features | 22:31 |
nmz787 | hmm, ok | 22:32 |
nmz787 | well that's enough for me to think about for now | 22:32 |
nmz787 | let me know if you have any FIB ideas, I was thinking fresnel lens mold masters, so I could make a magnifying lens | 22:33 |
nmz787 | just for fun, but maybe it could be some $ making gimmick | 22:33 |
nmz787 | fresnel lens for your microbible | 22:34 |
azonenberg | Lol | 22:34 |
azonenberg | If you can do small chrome-on-glass masks that would be nice, but I suspect that the fib will cost more to operate than you anticipate | 22:34 |
nmz787 | i have no idea what the operating costs are | 22:34 |
nmz787 | the guy says he charges $375/hr to customers | 22:35 |
nmz787 | but if I was playing around on my own he could do way cheaper | 22:35 |
azonenberg | That sounds about right, maybe a little on the high side | 22:35 |
nmz787 | like 10X cheaper | 22:35 |
azonenberg | I can get time on the one at RPI for $188.50/hr as an outside industrial user | 22:35 |
azonenberg | or, if i was on a sponsored research project, my grant would be billed at $45/hr | 22:35 |
nmz787 | yeah I just moved to portland OR, and have been looking for industry open labs | 22:35 |
azonenberg | that's a flat rate for the cleanroom, includes use of any tool there | 22:35 |
nmz787 | really want metrology access | 22:36 |
azonenberg | We have a really nice FESEM in the cleanroom here (zeiss supra 55) | 22:36 |
nmz787 | i used a really sweet white light interferometer at RIT that just shot out 3D profiles | 22:36 |
azonenberg | There's also a bunch of scopes in the matsci department that are outside the cleanroom that are much cheaper to get time on | 22:36 |
azonenberg | $45/hr for the jeol JSM-840 which is a dinosaur but good enough for a lot of stuff | 22:37 |
azonenberg | 65/hr for the FESEM | 22:37 |
azonenberg | and they have a bunch of TEMs which i'm just learning how to use for a class but don't anticipate actually using in any of my work | 22:37 |
nmz787 | you might look into temwindows.com and their parent site simpore.com | 22:39 |
nmz787 | i was thinking about using them for protein sieves | 22:39 |
nmz787 | when working with DNA and protein reactors | 22:39 |
azonenberg | interesting | 22:40 |
nmz787 | but if I get going with this FIB, I might be able to make small enough pores that would work, I'm not sure | 22:40 |
azonenberg | well for the class i'm only using premade tem samples | 22:40 |
nmz787 | they say they can control the pore size well | 22:40 |
azonenberg | and i dont anticipate using it myself outside of class | 22:40 |
nmz787 | within like 10 or 15 nm of your specified diameter | 22:40 |
azonenberg | and FIBing pores sounds very expensive | 22:44 |
nmz787 | bbl | 22:59 |
Sync | yeah that seems to be inefficient | 22:59 |
AdrianG | what is the meaning of this | 23:28 |
--- Mon Nov 5 2012 | 00:00 |
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