#homecmos IRC log for Wednesday, 2012-10-24

sputterguyhey what's up all07:29
sputterguyazonenberg: still thinking about what i can do with the dielectric sputtering07:30
sputterguyion-beam sputtering07:30
sputterguyi've been busy attending to other stuff this week07:30
azonenbergFun, I need to learn more about sputtering07:30
sputterguyfigured you might be interested in learning together about what can be done to get insulators sputtered07:30
azonenbergi've done a little bit of it but not much, just coating SEM specimens07:30
azonenbergthe only deposition techniques i've studied in any significant detail are spin coating and evaporation07:31
sputterguyyeah i'm trying to use one of those to grow some samples for an astrobiology group07:31
sputterguyi see. i built a thermal evaporator just last month07:31
sputterguyit's old school. uses a diffusion pump07:31
azonenbergat home from scratch?07:31
sputterguyno, in a lab07:31
sputterguybut it certainly felt like i could do it at home07:31
sputterguythe equipment is circa 1960s07:32
sputterguyhuge ass bell jar07:32
azonenbergwe have one of those in the SEM lab07:32
azonenbergused for evaporation on SEM specimens to gold/carbon coat them07:32
sputterguyyeah i want to make some samples that mimic some of the conditions on mars and asteroids in the kuiper belt07:33
azonenberghow so?07:33
azonenbergwhat structures i mean07:33
sputterguyi want to make some super simple capacitor-like structures07:33
sputterguysome metal, a ceramic, and some more metal07:33
azonenbergif you want high-K you can spin coat Ta2O507:33
sputterguylol, you sound like a semiconductor guy all right07:34
azonenbergor reactive sputter a metallic Ta target with O2 i think07:34
sputterguyhigh-K is highly unnatural :p07:34
sputterguyi got an ion-beam sputtering machine meant for coating samples with metal07:34
sputterguyi need to figure out how to get ceramics sputtered07:34
azonenbergIf you want metal oxides07:34
azonenberghow about mixing a little O2 with the Ar?07:35
sputterguyi was actually seriously contemplating sputtering real rocks found on earth on artificially created templates made of silicon07:35
azonenbergthat should give you reactive sputtering07:35
sputterguythe system is not meant for that and i also don't have pure oxygen07:35
azonenbergI see07:35
sputterguythis system just flows argon, but your suggestion is a valid one otherwise07:35
azonenbergI just know that you can do DC reactive sputtering07:35
azonenbergto deposit nonconductive oxides from conductive targets07:35
sputterguythis is basically dc sputtering. the difference is we use a "directional plasma" also called an ion beam07:36
azonenberglike Ta target + Ar sputter + O2 mixed with Ar => Ta2O507:36
azonenbergSo why will reactive sputtering not work?07:36
azonenbergI'm not familiar with your specific setup07:36
sputterguyit'll void the warranty :p07:36
sputterguyit's a fairly new system still. we actually called up the guys and they said it's possible to do and they have some unpublished experimental data that supports the idea that it can be done07:37
azonenbergbut they make no guarantees it'll survive?07:37
azonenbergand is that O2 specifically or reactive sputtering in general?07:37
azonenbergyou could also do nitrides by mixing in some N207:37
azonenbergsay, highly doped Si wafer as target -> Si3N407:38
azonenbergalso, yes i am doing most of my work at home but calling this "home" is a bit of an exaggeration :P http://colossus.cs.rpi.edu/pictures/2012/July/7-10-2012%20-%20lab/S7302825_sm.jpg07:38
sputterguythey make no guarantees that we don't end up damaging the ion guns. it may oxidize the electrodes making it difficult to strike a localized plasma aka ion beam07:39
sputterguyand reactive sputtering in general07:39
sputterguywe could also end up with metal nitrides we don't want07:39
sputterguyyou got a snazzy place07:39
sputterguyis that your fume hood in the back?07:40
azonenbergyou betcha07:40
azonenbergmight be a better angle http://colossus.cs.rpi.edu/pictures/2011/December/12-22-2011%20-%20lab/S7302298.JPG07:40
sputterguycool man07:40
sputterguyi'm also trading the currency markets so tonight is primetime night07:41
sputterguyshort eur/usd from 1.299007:41
azonenbergSo idk if you were in the channel when i mentioned this but i just got some nice ACS grade solvents07:41
azonenbergi had been cleaning stuff with hardware store grade chemicals and it left too much residue07:42
sputterguynice how did you get that?07:42
azonenbergnot that i'm trying to do transistors yet, but when i do that's going to kill me07:42
azonenbergonline supplier of course07:42
azonenberg~500ml each of acetone and IPA07:42
azonenbergthe place did not have any ethyl acetate in stock at the time so i need to try another vendor07:42
azonenbergi've been using acetone as a spin coating solvent but it evaporates too fast07:43
azonenbergi also need to finish my v2.0 spin coater07:43
azonenbergv1.0 fits in the fume hood, barely, but obstructs airflow and doesn't get good ventilation07:43
azonenbergv2 will be much lower profile and avoid all of those issues07:43
sputterguywhy do you do everything at home?07:44
azonenbergThe point of my work here is to figure out if you can get simple ASIC fab (like a couple of 74xx chips at least) to the same status as PCB etching, perhaps up a notch or two in difficulty07:45
azonenbergsomething a motivated hobbyist can do in a well-equipped home lab07:45
azonenbergbut that work is subordinate to my thesis and coursework so it's moving slowly07:46
sputterguywhat is your thesis and coursework?07:47
azonenbergMy thesis is on OS/CPU/SoC design and security07:47
sputterguytech's such a fun field07:47
sputterguyso much to do and explore07:47
azonenbergbasically taking the classic lines of what's done in the CPU and what's done by the OS and moving them around a bit07:47
sputterguyi'm getting sleepy again. almost said fuch a sun field07:47
azonenbergto improve security07:47
sputterguyi see07:47
sputterguyquite frankly your hobby sounds more interesting than your coursework :p07:48
azonenbergLol i'm extremely into both07:48
azonenbergwhich leaves me very little time to do anything else, not that i care07:48
sputterguyas long as you love doing it, who cares right?07:48
azonenbergi mean i do fairly advanced work on my research too :P07:48
sputterguybtw... up 30 pips = 300 bucks07:48
sputterguynot bad for a couple hours07:49
azonenbergone of my recent designs07:49
sputterguyespecially for shooting the shit with internet techies07:49
azonenbergand lol, if i wanted to get rich i'd just go work at a bank on wall street07:49
azonenbergi love my work too much07:49
sputterguyit's fun to make your money work as hard for you as you work for it07:49
sputterguyalso if you like reading the news and stuff, this lets you monetize that07:50
sputterguyi know a buddy of mine who trades oil futures07:50
sputterguyhe makes like a paycheck a night07:50
sputterguywhat is @_@?07:50
sputterguyis that like O_O?07:50
azonenbergmore like (blank glazed-over eyes)07:50
azonenbergi prefer to just mind my own business and play in a lab all day lol07:50
azonenbergi've already decided that if i'm offered a promotion to management in a future job i will decline07:51
azonenbergand if they insist, turn in my two weeks' notice right then and there07:51
sputterguyi know people who have a good, reliable system. they just make a trade and then get on with life. do what you want and have your money having money babies for you07:51
sputterguyhot $100 on $100 action07:51
sputterguybut right now i want to make sure i can sputter some moondust on my samples07:52
azonenbergi dont have the spare cash to fool with investing07:52
azonenbergthe one time i tried stocks all of the shares i picked increased in value, but not enough to cover the sum of buy and sell fees07:52
azonenbergso i took a net loss of like $20 even though everything went up :P07:52
sputterguystocks aren't worth it07:53
sputterguycurrency markets are way larger07:53
azonenbergwhat's more, i dont have the patience to do the research necessary to make accurate forecasts and turn a profit07:53
azonenbergit's just not something i have any interest in07:53
azonenbergi'd rather spend that time in the lab07:53
sputterguyyou'd be surprised how many scientists and engineers do apply their knowledge to it07:54
azonenbergwell, they're welcome to it07:54
sputterguyit's a fun application of stuff you know to something you know little about07:54
azonenbergpersonally i'd like to see securities trading eliminated entirely, along with most of the financial sector, and replaced with peer-to-peer currency :p07:54
azonenbergnow that we have a global communications infrastructure there's no need for a middleman anymore07:55
sputterguyi got a few bitcoins from 2010 too07:55
sputterguybest investment i ever made07:55
sputterguy10k% up07:55
sputterguyi should have sold when it hit $50/BTC, but oh well07:55
azonenbergSo this moon dust you're depositing07:56
azonenbergis it one material?07:56
azonenbergor multiple substances07:56
sputterguyi don't trust bitcoins much. they still have a long way to go. just yesterday my laptop which had maybe a few millibitcoins (mBTC) crashed and now i don't have a functioning bitcoin wallet on that computer07:56
sputterguyazonenberg: i was joking... i want to make it like moondust. aluminum oxide, silicon oxide, zinc oxide, maybe a little calcium and a little magnesium thrown in07:57
azonenbergNo, i mean the as-deposited structure07:57
sputterguyit's should be a heterogeneous mixture07:57
azonenbergdo you want layers or more of an irregular granular structure or what?07:57
sputterguylayers of irregular granular structure07:58
azonenbergAnd you want to do that by sputtering?07:58
sputterguywell, sputtering and annealing07:58
azonenbergSo you want to recrystallize the layers after deposition?07:58
sputterguythe phase diagrams get very complex very fast07:58
azonenbergi can imagine07:58
azonenbergspeaking of phase diagrams in 10 hours i'm going to be looking at some 304 SS under the TEM07:59
sputterguyoooh TEM, exotic07:59
sputterguyfancy man's got a fancy machine08:00
azonenbergnot at home :P08:00
azonenbergi'm taking a semester-long course on EM techniques08:00
azonenbergwe just finished the first half, which was on SEM08:00
sputterguyvery cool08:01
sputterguyhitachi? jeol?08:02
azonenbergthere are at least three SEMs i know of08:02
azonenbergwe trained on an old jeol (JSM-840)08:02
azonenbergthere is an amray, forget the model, in the room next door08:02
azonenbergand a zeiss supra 55 in the cleanroom08:02
azonenbergplus a super-nice zeiss crossbeam SEM/FIB also in the cleanroom08:02
azonenbergi'm not allowed to touch it yet though :P08:03
sputterguyi just closed a trade on eur/usd (missed out on about 10 pips = 100 bucks profit)... 60 pip profit = 600 bucks08:23
sputterguymeanwhile i was reading about how ion beam sputtering causes extreme localized heating that metals can dissipate08:23
sputterguybut insulators....08:23
sputterguygah, need to figure a way out for that08:23
sputterguyno way to water cool the thing08:25
sputterguyhmm then again it is an insulator...08:32
sputterguymelting point of aluminum oxide is 2,072° C08:32
sputterguythis looks good08:33
Syncsputterguy: I can ask my prof if that works08:43
sputterguyif what works?08:44
sputterguyjust loading up the insulator in the reactor and hoping for the best? lol08:44
sputterguythat's what i'm about ready to do08:44
sputterguyi also am QCM-less. stupid manufacturer decided you can't have both large area sputter coating and accurate thickness measurements08:44
SyncI actually have sputtered aluminium oxide, but I just used rf sputtering08:48
sputterguyion-beam sputtering should be in theory superior to other forms of sputtering in terms of damage incurred on the sample and in terms of range of materials that can be accommodated08:50
sputterguythis machine's purpose is to coat samples for SEM analysis though08:50
Syncjust try it08:50
Syncwhat should happen08:50
Syncit's not even going to do strange stuff to the inside of the chamber08:51
sputterguyi think you're right08:51
Syncmetallic stuff might cause arcovers and crap like that08:52
sputterguywell i think what people do is they mount aluminum oxide targets onto copper plates so as to maximize the metal that is in contact with the aluminum oxide target08:52
sputterguythat way greater heat dissipation is offered, but i don't think it really matters here08:52
Synchow much of hte material do you want to deposit?08:53
sputterguyi'm going to start small08:54
sputterguy10 nm08:54
sputterguybut i have no QCM08:54
sputterguyso i'm relying on random stuff i find on the internet08:54
Syncthen you are fucked08:54
Syncyou can try to measure the thickness with AFM and then see if the thickness keeps uniform08:55
Syncwhen you use the same parameters08:55
Syncbut, coincidence, just going to run two cal wafers after the EIES repair09:00
sputterguyyeah i guess we'll see how it goes09:12
Synca QCM should be easy enough to make09:17
sputterguyfinally got everything setup the way i wanted10:23
sputterguyprep time always takes forever here10:24
sputterguyso if i just wanted a very simple (from bottom to top) Au/Al/Al2O3/Al capacitor, how thick would I need to make the aluminum to get good ohmic contact with the aluminum oxide?10:25
sputterguyi had gold already put down on some glass so i figured i'd use it to cut down on the time sputtering the bottom aluminum electrode10:25
sputterguybut i want to make sure the structure is an aluminum electrode capacitor with an aluminum oxide dielectric10:26
Syncgood question sputterguy11:15
Syncwhen my process is running I'll ask someone that knows11:15
sputterguythe Au is 100 nm thick already11:15
sputterguyi'm super sleepy11:15
Syncthen have a nap11:15
Syncdid you see that?11:16
sputterguyi longed eur/usd at 1.3032. i was busy doing work and it didn't hit my profit target and i didn't notice... so instead of being up 600 + 150 bucks for the night. i'm just up 600 + 30 bucks right now11:16
sputterguyi generally ignore patents as a source of low content11:16
SyncI genereally do not speculate with money11:18
sputterguyi'm hooked. i've been toying with my strategy for a while now. only started using real money since may11:20
SyncI rather work 2 days and take a k11:20
sputterguya k?11:20
sputterguy8 hour days?11:21
Syncmore or less11:21
Syncit is not too bad but I'm still pretty cheap11:23
SyncI work as a industrial climber for larger windparks and as a tree climber in my free time11:27
Syncthe latter scouting nests of endangered species to see if they were there or not11:28
Syncif not usually windmills get build there11:28
Syncand with investments of over 6M per project people do not care much11:29
sputterguythat's badass11:43
Synchow does that happen.15:28
Syncthe stage 1 and 2 vanes are insanely stuck to the shaft15:28
azonenbergSync: turbopump not playing nice?15:34
Syncone of my twostage rotaries15:43
SyncI bought it because it is a chemical resistant one with a membrane pump on the exhaust to condense out stuff15:44
Syncbut it would not pump15:44
SyncI guess I need to get out the emery cloth15:44
Flea86|awayhi, anyone here have any experience using actel FPGAs?23:35
Flea86nm, I figured it out :)23:51
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