| B0101 | hello azonenberg | 06:26 |
|---|---|---|
| azonenberg | hi | 06:27 |
| B0101 | I never thought that KNO3 was very hard to find | 06:27 |
| azonenberg | lol, it has applications in explosives | 06:28 |
| azonenberg | i'm not surprised its tricky to get hold of | 06:28 |
| B0101 | I only managed to get 10% of dissolved KNO3 in water | 06:29 |
| B0101 | sold from a plant store | 06:29 |
| azonenberg | i guess they figure its too weak to do any damage with | 06:29 |
| azonenberg | what did you need it for? | 06:29 |
| B0101 | well, i was thinking of making some dilute nitric acid for testing | 06:30 |
| azonenberg | i see | 06:30 |
| azonenberg | cant help you there | 06:30 |
| azonenberg | never tried synthesizing it | 06:30 |
| B0101 | well, Calcium nitrate might work | 06:31 |
| B0101 | but all these chemicals are really expensive | 06:31 |
| B0101 | they are pretty cheap actually, its just because they added they hazard surcharge | 06:31 |
| superkuh | There was a fun, extensive thread on Sciencemadness a long while back about nitric acid production using air and electrical arcs. | 06:31 |
| B0101 | *the | 06:32 |
| B0101 | superkuh: hmm, air and electrical arcs? to make HNO3? | 06:34 |
| superkuh | Yes. It was how it was done in the 1800s. | 06:34 |
| superkuh | From the nitrogen in the air. | 06:34 |
| superkuh | I threw together a simple 6kv 30ma neon sign transformer version back in high school. The key is to spread the arc as much as possible. | 06:35 |
| superkuh | Not so different from just an enclosed jacobs ladder. | 06:36 |
| superkuh | https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=1518 | 06:37 |
| superkuh | Unfortunately a lot of the links no longer resolve. | 06:38 |
| B0101 | hmm, interesting, its going to take me quite a while to read all of that though | 06:46 |
| azonenberg | lol | 06:47 |
| B0101 | people are so much into 'anti-terrorism' that even teaching chemistry is frowned upon as 'the basis of terrorism' | 06:50 |
| azonenberg | i'd believe it... scary the way things are going :( | 06:51 |
| superkuh | Yep. When the FBI raided me for political dissent last January they freaked out of my lab. And particularly my trigylcine sulfate crystal growth stuff (included sulphuric acid). | 06:51 |
| superkuh | I had to spend quite a bit on 'proper' disposal when they forced it. | 06:52 |
| azonenberg | you got raided for political dissent? What exactly were you accused of doing? | 06:52 |
| superkuh | I can't talk about it for obvious reasons. Wikileaks related. I was never charged with any crime. | 06:52 |
| azonenberg | I didnt ask what you did, i asked what they claimed you did | 06:53 |
| azonenberg | because they already know what they said :p | 06:53 |
| superkuh | They never claimed anything. | 06:53 |
| superkuh | No charges. | 06:53 |
| azonenberg | Odd | 06:53 |
| azonenberg | But they forced you to get rid of the lab? | 06:53 |
| superkuh | Yes. Partially because they thought I was making bombs, called the county, and the county guy freaked out. | 06:53 |
| azonenberg | Ouch, i know a guy who got in a similar situation | 06:54 |
| azonenberg | as a result certain common drug/explosive precursors are absolutely banned in my lab | 06:54 |
| azonenberg | by me | 06:54 |
| azonenberg | i dont want to risk someone showing up and asking what i'm doing with them | 06:54 |
| azonenberg | safer to not have them around even in PPM levels | 06:54 |
| Action: B0101 is shocked at how the authorities relate any type of chemistry to terrorism | 06:55 | |
| azonenberg | thats why i'm trying to establish contacts in local law enforcement so i can be open about my work | 06:55 |
| azonenberg | if i approach them and explain what i'm doing BEFORE someone calls 911 on me | 06:55 |
| azonenberg | they're a lot more likely to listen to reason | 06:55 |
| soul-d | pfft | 06:56 |
| soul-d | they want control over everything i guess | 06:57 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument works in some cases but i do have a setup that would look quite suspicious if looked at from the wrong angle | 06:57 |
| azonenberg | so i'd rather start off on the right foot | 06:57 |
| azonenberg | so it never comes to that | 06:57 |
| soul-d | yeah but it's silly that you need to contact law enforcement on what ure doing | 06:58 |
| azonenberg | I haven't needed to | 06:58 |
| azonenberg | I'm contemplating it | 06:58 |
| azonenberg | certainly when i build my more large-scale lab in the future i'll do things fully by the book | 06:58 |
| azonenberg | even more so than i am now | 06:58 |
| soul-d | oh sure like the list of forbidden chems ( wich only are needed for drugs -> high exxplosives ) | 06:59 |
| azonenberg | well those are my own mental list | 06:59 |
| B0101 | here, as long as you are doing chemistry, everyone will shun you, and start gossiping. I was subject to a security check before entering the subway once. | 06:59 |
| azonenberg | B0101: you sure it wasnt just random? | 06:59 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: for example pseudoephedrine, ammonium/potassium nitrate, and a few other things like that | 07:00 |
| azonenberg | i have no need for | 07:00 |
| azonenberg | i dont want anything to do with them, in fact | 07:00 |
| soul-d | plant supplents | 07:00 |
| soul-d | or thats nitrogen | 07:00 |
| azonenberg | i live downtown in a small city | 07:00 |
| azonenberg | no plants | 07:00 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: nope. I was stopped JUST for carrying a large bag (it contained electronic parts, btw) | 07:00 |
| azonenberg | oh well thats somewhat reasonable then | 07:01 |
| azonenberg | but it wasnt because you were on a watchlist? | 07:01 |
| B0101 | nope | 07:01 |
| soul-d | ah well ill probably be on one now | 07:02 |
| azonenberg | lol | 07:02 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: they just went up to me and asked me if they could check my bag | 07:02 |
| soul-d | not for chems though but did get caught growing my own herbs :P | 07:02 |
| azonenberg | i dont know for sure if i'm on any, but given my line of work and the number of people i know who have been investigated for one reason or another | 07:02 |
| azonenberg | if i'm not on a couple of watchlists, some intelligence analyst somewhere should probably be fired :p | 07:03 |
| azonenberg | unless they're so good they've already determined i'm doing nothing wrong but i think thahths unlikely | 07:03 |
| soul-d | doubt that since you provide made up work | 07:03 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: i'll put in a good word for you next month at the fbi/diybio event | 07:04 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: thats what actually gave me the idea | 07:04 |
| soul-d | and services like to make up work so they can exists | 07:04 |
| kanzure | they are always telling us that they don't have enough resources to make watchlists | 07:04 |
| azonenberg | lol | 07:04 |
| B0101 | brb | 07:04 |
| kanzure | but i am skeptical and/or scared if that's true | 07:04 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: i'd almost believe it | 07:04 |
| soul-d | these day's police are just looking at twitter | 07:04 |
| soul-d | nothing more | 07:04 |
| kanzure | soul-d: not really | 07:05 |
| soul-d | oh here they do | 07:05 |
| kanzure | every year the fbi flies me out to give presentations about amateur biohacking and transhumanism | 07:05 |
| soul-d | arresting every twat that makes a joke | 07:05 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: i dont have a twitter | 07:05 |
| soul-d | me neither | 07:05 |
| azonenberg | and if people look at my facebook, well | 07:05 |
| kanzure | here's notes from last year | 07:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2011/2011-07-13.txt | 07:05 |
| azonenberg | they're going to see photos of FPGAs | 07:05 |
| azonenberg | and hikes | 07:05 |
| soul-d | in their eye's probably rocket chips and terrorist training | 07:06 |
| kanzure | "(3) FBI responsibilities and capabilities not well understood or defined" | 07:06 |
| azonenberg | lol | 07:06 |
| soul-d | you must be up to somthing azonenberg admit it you are going for world domination | 07:06 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: lol, actually | 07:07 |
| azonenberg | i have no interest in ruling the world | 07:07 |
| azonenberg | dictators get assassinated etc | 07:07 |
| soul-d | good leave that bit to me then :) | 07:07 |
| kanzure | i am only interested in intergalacticc domination | 07:07 |
| azonenberg | i want to be left alone in my lab | 07:07 |
| kanzure | the world is too small for my plans | 07:07 |
| azonenberg | just look at me still talking while there's SCIENCE to do ;) | 07:07 |
| B0101 | lol | 07:08 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: and you guys are just bio, i dont do any bio stuff in my lab lol | 07:08 |
| azonenberg | it's all semiconductors | 07:08 |
| kanzure | "just bio" not quite | 07:08 |
| azonenberg | now one would hope that if some investigator shows up and sees a 4" probing station, an oscilloscope, and a boat of 4-inch wafers it will be obvious what is going on | 07:08 |
| kanzure | it's because i am slacking on other projects :) | 07:08 |
| kanzure | true- wafers don't look particularly intimidating | 07:08 |
| azonenberg | i meant, they back up my claim of being a legit lab | 07:08 |
| azonenberg | considering how many are patterned :p | 07:09 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: any tips on how to appear less threatening? | 07:09 |
| kanzure | yes.. know your local fbi person | 07:09 |
| azonenberg | i'm running my lab as by-the-book as i can - MSDS book in a visible area where the landlord can find it (and i've told him about it) | 07:10 |
| kanzure | i am very serious actually | 07:10 |
| azonenberg | secondary containment under all chemical storage | 07:10 |
| kanzure | i can hook you up with an agent | 07:10 |
| kanzure | you will meet for coffee somewhere for 30-45 minutes | 07:10 |
| azonenberg | flammables isolated from sources of ignition and oxidizers | 07:10 |
| azonenberg | etc | 07:10 |
| kanzure | shoot the shit a bit | 07:10 |
| kanzure | and that's about it | 07:10 |
| kanzure | when and if you ever get into trouble, you will call him up | 07:10 |
| kanzure | and show that you have fbi involvement | 07:10 |
| azonenberg | Would said person want to visit the lab in person? | 07:10 |
| azonenberg | or only see documentation | 07:10 |
| kanzure | uh usually they are super understanding if you don't want to show off your lab | 07:11 |
| azonenberg | Before an incident i mean | 07:11 |
| azonenberg | Ok | 07:11 |
| kanzure | no they don't ask for documentation really | 07:11 |
| azonenberg | Worth looking into, i think | 07:11 |
| kanzure | it's more like "i would like you to be aware that i exist and that i am a person" | 07:11 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 07:11 |
| azonenberg | My landlord is a retired chief of police for the city i live in and he's fully aware of what i'm doing | 07:11 |
| azonenberg | so thats a start | 07:11 |
| kanzure | i have some contacts with the weapons of mass destruction program and they would be happy to hook you up | 07:12 |
| soul-d | maybe contact local fire deparment or otherwise use contact landlord still might have ? | 07:12 |
| azonenberg | he's around periodically and seen it in person, presumably knows enough drug/bomb making stuff that he knows its not what i'm donig | 07:12 |
| azonenberg | I'm still looking around | 07:12 |
| kanzure | eh just calling up a fire department isn't a good idea | 07:12 |
| kanzure | it's best that you just go through someone's rollodex so you don't call the wrong person | 07:12 |
| azonenberg | what i mainly do not want is to end up like my friend | 07:12 |
| kanzure | if you call the non-emergency line it's still super suspicious | 07:12 |
| soul-d | no said contact | 07:12 |
| soul-d | not call | 07:12 |
| azonenberg | who had the hazmat team show up at his front door lol | 07:12 |
| azonenberg | unannounced | 07:12 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: what did he do? | 07:13 |
| soul-d | so that indeed implies you reserch for correct person | 07:13 |
| azonenberg | and drag him off in handcuffs | 07:13 |
| azonenberg | http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Chemicals-safe-suspect-says-865338.php | 07:13 |
| azonenberg | that should link you to the rest of the articles on the incident | 07:13 |
| azonenberg | i'm trying to avoid a repeat of that | 07:13 |
| soul-d | lol azonenberg you saw my mess police saw it din't care | 07:13 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: well it depends on the region i'm sure | 07:13 |
| soul-d | only my herbs where important to them ( more then a burgulary next door ) | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | i know for a fact that people here can be a bit triggerhappy when it comes to such things | 07:14 |
| soul-d | since i got caught cause i opend my door :( | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | and i want to avoid any misunderstandings | 07:14 |
| kanzure | "Police said they were alerted to the situation when an apartment tenant notified them of the vacuum chamber. | 07:14 |
| kanzure | a vacuum chamber? | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: yes | 07:14 |
| kanzure | that's what they were concerned about? | 07:14 |
| kanzure | jeeze | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | apparently they thought it was a bomb | 07:14 |
| kanzure | i should tip the police that my neighbors have an oven | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | it was admittedly a fairly large steel one | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | not pumped down, though | 07:14 |
| azonenberg | stored depressurized in a safe manner | 07:15 |
| azonenberg | unpressurized* | 07:15 |
| kanzure | "NEGATIVE 1E14 TOR? CALL THE POLICE" | 07:15 |
| superkuh | Hah. | 07:15 |
| azonenberg | Anyaway so the guy was a classmate of mine and former business partner | 07:15 |
| soul-d | but all this fear isn't that good | 07:15 |
| azonenberg | and lived the next town over from me | 07:15 |
| soul-d | for every bag thats left | 07:15 |
| soul-d | bomb squad | 07:15 |
| azonenberg | So it would look REALLY bad for me if anything of that sort happened lol | 07:15 |
| superkuh | Legislated mean free path limits... | 07:15 |
| azonenberg | which is why i am more concerned than if it was just a random person who lived nearby, i am connected to him lol | 07:16 |
| kanzure | superkuh: licenses, then, would be probabilistic | 07:16 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: anyway so you think you can put me in contact with someone from this area who actually knows what he's talking about? | 07:16 |
| kanzure | actually the field agents aren't necessarily that knowledgable | 07:17 |
| kanzure | some of them are | 07:17 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: oh, so this goes higher up than the local field office? | 07:17 |
| kanzure | the ones running the fbi/diybio program have some molecular biology background | 07:17 |
| kanzure | your local field office probably has no particular expertise in semiconductor manufacturing | 07:18 |
| azonenberg | Lol, probably | 07:18 |
| kanzure | where did you say you are? | 07:18 |
| kanzure | rpi? rti? | 07:18 |
| azonenberg | rpi | 07:18 |
| azonenberg | right across the hudson from albany | 07:18 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: "charged with first-degree reckless endangerment, a felony, as well as second-degree obstructing governmental administration and resisting arrest, both misdemeanors | 07:19 |
| B0101 | " just for possesing chemicals? | 07:19 |
| azonenberg | B0101: apparently the resisting arrest was for covering his face with his hands when body-slammed into the wall during the arrest | 07:19 |
| soul-d | can't you setup a small paper company from home or somthing the like ? | 07:19 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: would you be okay if i sent an email, and would you want me to CC or BCC you? | 07:19 |
| soul-d | lol in usa | 07:20 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: yes, and cc me zonena@rpi.edu | 07:20 |
| soul-d | even blinking is resisting arrest | 07:20 |
| azonenberg | B0101: and the obstruction was some equally absurd fabrication | 07:20 |
| azonenberg | i wasnt there so i dont know the full story | 07:20 |
| azonenberg | i do know in the end they dropped most charges and he paid a small fine and pled to some slap-on-the-wrist violation | 07:20 |
| azonenberg | which basically meant he walked and the city knew he wouldn't sue | 07:21 |
| soul-d | maybe smart to have some vid cams streaming to offsite location for such ocassions :P | 07:21 |
| azonenberg | Doubt that would help much | 07:21 |
| azonenberg | In any case, i know quite well how bad things can go once the feds show up at the door | 07:22 |
| azonenberg | or the local cops | 07:22 |
| azonenberg | So i'm trying to avoid ever getting to that point | 07:22 |
| soul-d | yeah was scary with cop here | 07:22 |
| soul-d | was allowed to make coffe | 07:22 |
| soul-d | but whole counter sprayed with knifes and all | 07:22 |
| soul-d | so clearly stating what i was about to do next | 07:22 |
| soul-d | :P | 07:22 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: actually, i'll send it tomorrow. 2am is probably not the right time for me to compose that particular email | 07:23 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: lol sure | 07:23 |
| kanzure | they have been very happy about some community labs, but those actually incorporated into small businesses.. so those aren't really DIY anymroe | 07:23 |
| azonenberg | I'm in an area thats commercially zoned but the floor i'm on is an apartment | 07:24 |
| kanzure | they seem to be okay with the LA biohackers group, which is not incorporated, although it is a group (albeit small) | 07:24 |
| kanzure | oh interesting. that's good | 07:24 |
| azonenberg | i've been very careful to isolate the lab from everything else | 07:24 |
| azonenberg | like, across a large room from living spaces | 07:24 |
| azonenberg | full sprinkler coverage + extinguishers | 07:24 |
| azonenberg | and keeping volumes of all my materials to an absolute minimum | 07:25 |
| kanzure | haha i'm not particularly worried about your attention to safety- i'm fairly confident in you | 07:25 |
| azonenberg | since i work with such tiny volumes there's no reason to ever have a lot of anything | 07:25 |
| kanzure | i'm just not confident in myself to write the correct email at 2am ;) | 07:25 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 07:25 |
| soul-d | glad here we aren;t that far with our forces although goverment is trying hard to screw it over | 07:26 |
| soul-d | they even started to use military against civilians ( "criminals") | 07:26 |
| soul-d | wich is in my eye's a very bad road to go down | 07:27 |
| kanzure | soul-d: do you hear voices? | 07:27 |
| soul-d | no i do hear a continious tone around 7000 herz | 07:28 |
| soul-d | why ? :P | 07:28 |
| Action: B0101 wonders if people have ever been charged for posessing ammonia nitrate | 07:30 | |
| soul-d | so that probalby means im under cia controll | 07:30 |
| azonenberg | B0101: ammonium nitrate? It's legal afaik but they do watch who buys lots of it | 07:30 |
| soul-d | kmno4 is more dangerous | 07:30 |
| soul-d | most dangerous chems you can get at shops for farmers probably have a list nex to where you can order most other things | 07:33 |
| B0101 | well, so i was thinking, why not ban water if people have died from drinking too much water? (just kidding though) | 07:33 |
| B0101 | well, people ban many chemicals because they say its "unsafe" | 07:34 |
| azonenberg | B0101: http://www.dhmo.org/truth/Dihydrogen-Monoxide.html | 07:35 |
| B0101 | what? | 07:37 |
| B0101 | ok, are you kidding me? | 07:37 |
| azonenberg | lol | 07:38 |
| B0101 | very funny though... | 07:39 |
| azonenberg | it does raise a rather frightening point | 07:39 |
| azonenberg | imagine something written just like this about something just a touc hless common | 07:39 |
| azonenberg | say, acetic acid | 07:40 |
| B0101 | wow, for all the non science people, it will really scare them | 07:40 |
| azonenberg | now think about the fact that your government is run by non-science people | 07:41 |
| soul-d | :) | 07:41 |
| azonenberg | and you start to realize where the problem comes from | 07:41 |
| soul-d | fear | 07:41 |
| soul-d | not knowing | 07:41 |
| azonenberg | exactly | 07:43 |
| soul-d | and we are training the people to be fearful | 07:43 |
| azonenberg | fear of the known danger is fine | 07:43 |
| azonenberg | if you understand it | 07:43 |
| azonenberg | fear of the unknown is a problem | 07:43 |
| soul-d | that makes you irrational | 07:43 |
| azonenberg | And irrational people in power is never good | 07:44 |
| azonenberg | therefore, since we can't remove them - they'll just be replaced by more irrational peopl | 07:45 |
| azonenberg | the only option is to educate them | 07:45 |
| soul-d | well we here now trying to illigalize weed again :( now when whole world ios basicly admitting our system was/is better | 07:45 |
| soul-d | parts of usa made it legal and have medical use available | 07:46 |
| soul-d | cannada | 07:46 |
| soul-d | etc | 07:46 |
| soul-d | and peopel in power ofcourse still talk about alcohol and drugs | 07:47 |
| soul-d | alcohol is hard drugs lol but stay's seperate always | 07:47 |
| azonenberg | Well that's one thing i'm going to disagree with | 07:48 |
| azonenberg | i'd like to see smoking of anything banned 100%, for starters | 07:48 |
| azonenberg | there are much safer ways of getting your nicotine / THC / whatever | 07:48 |
| azonenberg | no need to fill your lungs up with tar | 07:48 |
| soul-d | that alcohol is hard drugs ? | 07:49 |
| soul-d | oh sure | 07:49 |
| azonenberg | and i'd also like to see recreational use of mind-altering substances banned | 07:49 |
| soul-d | but then you need to provide methods and not make it so expensive that those methods can't be paid | 07:49 |
| azonenberg | if you can convince a doctor that you need anything from morphine to THC then you should be able to get a prescription | 07:49 |
| azonenberg | but it should be in refined medical-grade form | 07:50 |
| azonenberg | and only with demonstrated need | 07:50 |
| soul-d | no medical grade is bs | 07:50 |
| soul-d | it's standart | 07:50 |
| azonenberg | as in you should not be able to get a marijuana cigarette from a pharmacy | 07:50 |
| soul-d | not medical | 07:50 |
| azonenberg | a pill containing 200mg or whatever a normal dose of THC is, on the other hand | 07:50 |
| azonenberg | is no worse than a pill containing a similar dose of opiates | 07:50 |
| soul-d | here you can only get the herb but nobody want's the pharma stuff | 07:50 |
| soul-d | there is no thc pil | 07:51 |
| azonenberg | the point is, it should be a medication | 07:51 |
| soul-d | can't be pattented | 07:51 |
| soul-d | syntetic is crap | 07:51 |
| azonenberg | and recreational use banned | 07:51 |
| soul-d | don't agree | 07:51 |
| azonenberg | and of course, the more addictive versions should be prescribed only as a last resort | 07:51 |
| soul-d | then ban capsine | 07:51 |
| soul-d | and all herbs | 07:51 |
| soul-d | capsine is addictive | 07:51 |
| azonenberg | caffeine you mean? | 07:51 |
| soul-d | noe | 07:51 |
| soul-d | capsine amuun | 07:51 |
| soul-d | pepers | 07:51 |
| soul-d | hot pepers | 07:51 |
| azonenberg | addictive? how | 07:51 |
| soul-d | it is lightly addictive | 07:52 |
| azonenberg | But not psychoactive as far as i know | 07:52 |
| azonenberg | and is primarily sought for its taste | 07:52 |
| soul-d | sure | 07:52 |
| azonenberg | i'm talking about consuming anything for the sake of getting a high | 07:52 |
| soul-d | thats why we have pepers | 07:53 |
| soul-d | over 1 mln shu | 07:53 |
| soul-d | no | 07:53 |
| azonenberg | should be completely banned | 07:53 |
| soul-d | people arer addicts | 07:53 |
| azonenberg | well ok, those people are | 07:53 |
| azonenberg | but you can get addicted to sugar too | 07:53 |
| soul-d | ban that to yes | 07:53 |
| soul-d | and al mono glutamate salts | 07:53 |
| soul-d | ribosome | 07:53 |
| soul-d | and other crap | 07:53 |
| soul-d | they put in food | 07:53 |
| azonenberg | but again, the main thing is that smoking of anything should be outlawed | 07:53 |
| azonenberg | doesnt matter what it is | 07:53 |
| azonenberg | there is no medicinal reason | 07:54 |
| soul-d | ban cars :) | 07:54 |
| azonenberg | if it has to be inhaled, atomize the active ingredient | 07:54 |
| soul-d | until then i smoke what i want if i want but i agree weed should be in sufficient amount availle to be able to extract oil or sure it other meathods like tea | 07:54 |
| azonenberg | thats the thing, i dont think it should be available to the public unrestricted | 07:55 |
| azonenberg | any more than, say, morphine | 07:55 |
| azonenberg | you can get it from a doctor if you need it | 07:55 |
| soul-d | no you can't here | 07:55 |
| soul-d | unless you dieing from somthing | 07:55 |
| soul-d | almost | 07:55 |
| azonenberg | Hence "need" | 07:55 |
| azonenberg | and why morphine is only prescribed when everythign else has failed | 07:55 |
| azonenberg | as should all highly addictive drugs with a less addictive substitute | 07:56 |
| azonenberg | personally i'd like to see ethanol eliminated too | 07:56 |
| azonenberg | but you can't ban it suddenly, that backfired horribly last time it was tried | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | just slowly increase taxes until it costs $100 a glass | 07:57 |
| soul-d | well don't agree with you on that point people should be able to make up their own minds | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | and keep on going up | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | eventually stores will stop selling it on their own | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | due to lack of business | 07:57 |
| soul-d | weed is an unalterd natural product for people in your country | 07:57 |
| B0101 | ban smoking 100%??? that seems like a good idea | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | B0101: ethanol | 07:57 |
| soul-d | genisis 1:29 should be sufficient | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | smoking should come first | 07:57 |
| soul-d | wich says god gave me it | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: and if you're going down that line of reasoning | 07:57 |
| azonenberg | god gave you poison arrow frogs | 07:58 |
| azonenberg | go smoke them | 07:58 |
| soul-d | no | 07:58 |
| azonenberg | then try to stagger over to a corner before you die | 07:58 |
| azonenberg | so your rotting corpse won't stink up the rest of the room :p | 07:58 |
| azonenberg | point is, natural != healthy | 07:58 |
| azonenberg | ethanol comes from fermented grain, sure | 07:58 |
| azonenberg | so does botulism | 07:58 |
| soul-d | explain why we have cannabinoid reptors | 07:59 |
| soul-d | all other drugs you talk about is poisinous effecty | 07:59 |
| soul-d | unlike cannabis | 07:59 |
| azonenberg | probably meant to bind to some neurotransmitter that thc happens to look like | 07:59 |
| Sync_ | haha I just bought quite a lot of nitric here | 08:00 |
| azonenberg | and just so you know i am not a religious fanatic | 08:00 |
| azonenberg | Sync_: i've been considering picking some up so i can decap more | 08:00 |
| Sync_ | but kno3 is starting to get strange to acquire | 08:00 |
| azonenberg | now that i have proper ventilated exhaust | 08:00 |
| soul-d | anyhow i don't think you should think about banning stuff other peopel do whilst you want to work with possible dangerous chems :) | 08:00 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: i'm not putting them into my body though | 08:00 |
| azonenberg | in fact i'm taking extreme precautions to make sure of that | 08:00 |
| soul-d | but in my air | 08:00 |
| soul-d | or water | 08:00 |
| soul-d | or nature | 08:01 |
| azonenberg | i collect all of my liquid waste | 08:01 |
| soul-d | and i don't want you to do that | 08:01 |
| soul-d | sure | 08:01 |
| azonenberg | and cover containers as much as i can to keep gaseous emissions to a minimum | 08:01 |
| soul-d | adn you bring it some where else | 08:01 |
| soul-d | so you do somthing and then give it to rest of world | 08:01 |
| soul-d | and say see what you do with it | 08:01 |
| azonenberg | most of my liquid waste is just acids with metal salts in them | 08:02 |
| azonenberg | easy to precipitate out | 08:02 |
| azonenberg | i just dont have the equipment for it | 08:02 |
| soul-d | anyhow you get my point you can't ban stuff | 08:02 |
| soul-d | it won't work | 08:02 |
| soul-d | and illigalize people | 08:02 |
| soul-d | or criminalize them for using | 08:02 |
| soul-d | makes only stuff worse | 08:02 |
| azonenberg | selling stuff on the street should, imo, be a capital offense | 08:03 |
| soul-d | sure | 08:03 |
| azonenberg | execute enough dealers and the rest will go away | 08:03 |
| azonenberg | problem solved | 08:03 |
| soul-d | but in country where you can legaly as cop | 08:03 |
| soul-d | try to lure poeple into doing bad things | 08:03 |
| soul-d | like trying to sell them drugs | 08:03 |
| soul-d | and arrest them if they as much look at it | 08:03 |
| azonenberg | if someone tried to sell me something i'd turn them in | 08:04 |
| soul-d | hehe | 08:04 |
| B0101 | sould-d: the US have already did that | 08:04 |
| Sync_ | wut azonenberg | 08:04 |
| azonenberg | Sync_: you heard me | 08:04 |
| azonenberg | if someone tried to sell me drugs i'd turn him in | 08:04 |
| soul-d | no | 08:04 |
| soul-d | cop is trying to sell you | 08:04 |
| Sync_ | and why azonenberg? | 08:04 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: i dont know he's a cop | 08:04 |
| azonenberg | but he's selling drugs in my town | 08:05 |
| azonenberg | i want him gone | 08:05 |
| azonenberg | if he is a cop, he'll leave me along | 08:05 |
| azonenberg | if he isnt, he goes away in handcuffs | 08:05 |
| azonenberg | either way problem solved | 08:05 |
| Sync_ | haha | 08:05 |
| soul-d | world is not that black and white | 08:05 |
| Sync_ | I really do not care | 08:05 |
| soul-d | not in usa | 08:05 |
| Sync_ | and yeah it is not that black and white anywhere in the world | 08:05 |
| soul-d | you probaly downward with cuffs on if you try to call cops | 08:05 |
| B0101 | soul-d: do you know about the MKULTRA project by the CIA? | 08:05 |
| soul-d | read about it once in some conspiracy thing | 08:06 |
| soul-d | but probably was high and forgot what it was about | 08:06 |
| B0101 | it was said that the CIA planted mind control drugs in people's drinks while they were away | 08:06 |
| azonenberg | B0101: cia or would-be mugger, if a drink is out of my sight in a public place | 08:07 |
| azonenberg | it's garbage | 08:07 |
| soul-d | oh yeah mind controll stuff thats hy i said i might be under cia controll | 08:07 |
| azonenberg | and if i ever step away from a table in the cafeteria etc i always am looking at it every few seconds | 08:07 |
| B0101 | and then, it was said that they then controlled the person to kill John F. Kennedy | 08:07 |
| azonenberg | mostly for would-be laptop thieves | 08:07 |
| soul-d | my glas usaly emptey before i put it down | 08:08 |
| soul-d | but those story's are intresting at times most of times far fetched | 08:09 |
| B0101 | but well, as always, citation needed | 08:09 |
| soul-d | more intrested in bilderberg stuff and world goverment /control | 08:09 |
| soul-d | they are bout to meet again so hope on some good conspiracies emerging soon :) | 08:10 |
| azonenberg | lol | 08:10 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: go ask nathan7 | 08:10 |
| azonenberg | he should have plenty of crazy theories after his last LSD experiment :p | 08:11 |
| soul-d | a good reason to be nice to my queen and wave the flag every year :) | 08:11 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: btw, for some reason, none of my lab mates undertood what was dihydrogen monoxide or hydrogen hydroxide | 08:11 |
| azonenberg | wow | 08:11 |
| azonenberg | that is... scary | 08:12 |
| soul-d | see i don't do stuff like that and could care less for those stuff also mushrooms truffels other | 08:12 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: i had to tell them to write out the chemical formula before they found out i meant water | 08:12 |
| soul-d | i only care for weed since i know that helps problem is hard to prove especialy without medical cooperation | 08:13 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: i dont deny it has some beneficial effects, i just think it shouldn't be used for enjoyment | 08:13 |
| azonenberg | and, on top of that | 08:13 |
| azonenberg | given its known tendencies to cause addiction should be a last resort | 08:14 |
| azonenberg | prescribed when all other known medications have failed | 08:14 |
| azonenberg | and, if unbiased studies cant show it does anything other drugs cant | 08:14 |
| azonenberg | keep it on the illegal list since other things do the job better | 08:15 |
| soul-d | tried sleeping pills hort while but doesn't attack all problems weed does it all sleep /concetration it doesn't need to have bad side effects although i agree i use the quick fix to | 08:15 |
| soul-d | weed isn't realy addictive | 08:15 |
| soul-d | at most a day or 3 | 08:15 |
| soul-d | adn if it's soked with tabbaco | 08:15 |
| soul-d | you probalby got other addiction to worry about | 08:16 |
| soul-d | all the research against | 08:16 |
| soul-d | weed is biased | 08:16 |
| soul-d | or such small scale | 08:16 |
| soul-d | adn those papers get qouted over and over | 08:16 |
| soul-d | and then you read the study was amonst 10 highly aadictive youngster who started using all kinsd of drugs before adulthood | 08:17 |
| soul-d | sure i can find problems that way to | 08:17 |
| azonenberg | your argument still doesnt hold water, i've seen no evidence that marijuana can do anything that other less addictive substances can't | 08:17 |
| azonenberg | the question is not whether it works | 08:17 |
| azonenberg | the question is whether it's the best tool for the job | 08:18 |
| azonenberg | and so far the answer seems no | 08:18 |
| soul-d | it is :) | 08:18 |
| soul-d | it's cheaper cleaner less side effects | 08:18 |
| azonenberg | cleaner? | 08:18 |
| azonenberg | you call that cloud of tars and carcinogens clean? | 08:18 |
| soul-d | with out crap that isn;t needed | 08:18 |
| soul-d | you still only think smoking | 08:18 |
| soul-d | but you can put it in mineral oil | 08:18 |
| soul-d | and rub it on | 08:18 |
| soul-d | or in tea | 08:19 |
| soul-d | extract oil | 08:19 |
| soul-d | and use it with vegatable oil | 08:19 |
| azonenberg | and still, in any case, you're giving no actual real data | 08:19 |
| azonenberg | or links to any peer-reviewed work | 08:19 |
| soul-d | oh yeah | 08:19 |
| soul-d | sure | 08:19 |
| soul-d | research uyourself | 08:19 |
| azonenberg | so i say [citation needed] :p | 08:19 |
| soul-d | ill give uyou the books moment | 08:19 |
| azonenberg | i dont need them | 08:20 |
| Action: azonenberg gets back to coding | 08:20 | |
| soul-d | i know | 08:20 |
| soul-d | but then you don;t have any arguments anymore | 08:20 |
| soul-d | except you don't like people haveing expierences | 08:21 |
| Action: azonenberg would also prefer that education stop cramming everyone into buckets | 08:21 | |
| azonenberg | and let people go faster or slower if they can/cant keep up | 08:21 |
| soul-d | Cannabinoids [Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology 168] - R. Pertwee (Springer, 2005) WW | 08:21 |
| soul-d | Cannabis - The Genus Cannabis - D. Brown (Harwood, 1998) WW | 08:21 |
| azonenberg | there is no reason why the top ~20% of high school students couldn't be doing a lot more advanced stuff than they are | 08:22 |
| soul-d | Understanding Marijuana - A New Look at the Scientific Evidence - M. Earleywine (Oxford, 2002) WW | 08:23 |
| soul-d | sure | 08:23 |
| azonenberg | in general i think our current society is full of waste and underachievers | 08:23 |
| soul-d | education is failing rapidly these years | 08:23 |
| soul-d | i agree | 08:23 |
| azonenberg | there are entire careers that contribute nothing to society | 08:23 |
| soul-d | and jobs that used to be done by young people as side job became full jobs | 08:24 |
| soul-d | like working in clothes shop | 08:25 |
| azonenberg | Yep | 08:25 |
| soul-d | used to be done by the girl that likes clothe4s | 08:25 |
| soul-d | now they lure girls in to school telling them they will eb designers | 08:25 |
| azonenberg | fashion | 08:25 |
| azonenberg | the whole industry seems like a waste | 08:25 |
| soul-d | thats the word | 08:25 |
| soul-d | thats how the course is called | 08:26 |
| azonenberg | it just results in needless turnover of perfectly good garments | 08:26 |
| soul-d | and there all kinds of stuff like that | 08:27 |
| azonenberg | Exactly | 08:27 |
| soul-d | education is big bussiness to | 08:27 |
| azonenberg | and people look at it like "creating jobs" | 08:27 |
| soul-d | i hated that | 08:27 |
| azonenberg | giving people jobs that waste money and contribute nothing to society is a problem, not a solution | 08:27 |
| soul-d | when i was working i a factory | 08:27 |
| azonenberg | i mean, sure people need work | 08:27 |
| azonenberg | but make them do work that produces something | 08:27 |
| soul-d | the higher would go look aroudnwith you for 20 min | 08:27 |
| soul-d | to find work | 08:27 |
| azonenberg | be it knowledge or a physical device | 08:28 |
| azonenberg | every job should produce something | 08:28 |
| azonenberg | if at the end of the day you can't say how your job made the world a better place | 08:28 |
| azonenberg | maybe it doesn't need to be done | 08:28 |
| soul-d | hence why i doing prettymuch nothing :) | 08:29 |
| soul-d | can't make it much worse either | 08:30 |
| soul-d | growing tomato's pepers some food herbs will need to startup some more stuff this month | 08:31 |
| soul-d | see if that works should be usefull :) | 08:31 |
| soul-d | instead of trying to get tomato's from spain to here | 08:31 |
| soul-d | in any case i don't feel obliged to do anything much just an observer i do might complain wich is my job :) | 08:34 |
| soul-d | anyhow got to do some paper work at local office | 08:35 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: i have to thank you | 08:43 |
| azonenberg | B0101: for what | 08:43 |
| B0101 | your joke about DHMO make my report typing session fun (well, thinking about it makes me laugh) | 08:44 |
| azonenberg | lol | 08:45 |
| B0101 | shame that i have to control my laughter (me is in library) | 08:46 |
| azonenberg | lol | 08:48 |
| azonenberg | i'm sitting at my desk kept awake by nothing but energy and the desire to get this proposal done with | 08:48 |
| azonenberg | i got nowhere near enough sleep and was falling asleep yesterday afternoon in a meeting | 08:48 |
| azonenberg | now next thing i know it's 5 AM and i'm coding and not too tired | 08:48 |
| soul-d | adrenaline rush | 08:49 |
| soul-d | should be forbidden to :P | 08:49 |
| Action: B0101 cannot keep awake w/o coffee | 08:49 | |
| B0101 | well, sometimes coffee does not work | 08:50 |
| B0101 | ouch... | 08:55 |
| B0101 | they keep resetting me | 08:56 |
| Sync | noez | 09:05 |
| --- Fri May 4 2012 | 00:00 | |
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