#homecmos IRC log for Thursday, 2012-05-03

B0101hello azonenberg06:26
B0101I never thought that KNO3 was very hard to find06:27
azonenberglol, it has applications in explosives06:28
azonenbergi'm not surprised its tricky to get hold of06:28
B0101I only managed to get 10% of dissolved KNO3 in water06:29
B0101sold from a plant store06:29
azonenbergi guess they figure its too weak to do any damage with06:29
azonenbergwhat did you need it for?06:29
B0101well, i was thinking of making some dilute nitric acid for testing06:30
azonenbergi see06:30
azonenbergcant help you there06:30
azonenbergnever tried synthesizing it06:30
B0101well, Calcium nitrate might work06:31
B0101but all these chemicals are really expensive06:31
B0101they are pretty cheap actually, its just because they added they hazard surcharge06:31
superkuhThere was a fun, extensive thread on Sciencemadness a long while back about nitric acid production using air and electrical arcs.06:31
B0101superkuh: hmm, air and electrical arcs? to make HNO3?06:34
superkuhYes. It was how it was done in the 1800s.06:34
superkuhFrom the nitrogen in the air.06:34
superkuhI threw together a simple 6kv 30ma neon sign transformer version back in high school. The key is to spread the arc as much as possible.06:35
superkuhNot so different from just an enclosed jacobs ladder.06:36
superkuhUnfortunately a lot of the links no longer resolve.06:38
B0101hmm, interesting, its going to take me quite a while to read all of that though06:46
B0101people are so much into 'anti-terrorism' that even teaching chemistry is frowned upon as 'the basis of terrorism'06:50
azonenbergi'd believe it... scary the way things are going :(06:51
superkuhYep. When the FBI raided me for political dissent last January they freaked out of my lab. And particularly my trigylcine sulfate crystal growth stuff (included sulphuric acid).06:51
superkuhI had to spend quite a bit on 'proper' disposal when they forced it.06:52
azonenbergyou got raided for political dissent? What exactly were you accused of doing?06:52
superkuhI can't talk about it for obvious reasons. Wikileaks related. I was never charged with any crime.06:52
azonenbergI didnt ask what you did, i asked what they claimed you did06:53
azonenbergbecause they already know what they said :p06:53
superkuhThey never claimed anything.06:53
superkuhNo charges.06:53
azonenbergBut they forced you to get rid of the lab?06:53
superkuhYes. Partially because they thought I was making bombs, called the county, and the county guy freaked out.06:53
azonenbergOuch, i know a guy who got in a similar situation06:54
azonenbergas a result certain common drug/explosive precursors are absolutely banned in my lab06:54
azonenbergby me06:54
azonenbergi dont want to risk someone showing up and asking what i'm doing with them06:54
azonenbergsafer to not have them around even in PPM levels06:54
Action: B0101 is shocked at how the authorities relate any type of chemistry to terrorism 06:55
azonenbergthats why i'm trying to establish contacts in local law enforcement so i can be open about my work06:55
azonenbergif i approach them and explain what i'm doing BEFORE someone calls 911 on me06:55
azonenbergthey're a lot more likely to listen to reason06:55
soul-dthey want control over everything  i guess06:57
azonenbergsoul-d: the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument works in some cases but i do have a setup that would look quite suspicious if looked at from the wrong angle06:57
azonenbergso i'd rather start off on the right foot06:57
azonenbergso it never comes to that06:57
soul-dyeah  but it's silly that you need to  contact law enforcement on what ure doing06:58
azonenbergI haven't needed to06:58
azonenbergI'm contemplating it06:58
azonenbergcertainly when i build my more large-scale lab in the future i'll do things fully by the book06:58
azonenbergeven more so than i am now06:58
soul-doh sure  like the list of forbidden chems ( wich only are needed for drugs -> high exxplosives )06:59
azonenbergwell those are my own mental list06:59
B0101here, as long as you are doing chemistry, everyone will shun you, and start gossiping. I was subject to a security check before entering the subway once.06:59
azonenbergB0101: you sure it wasnt just random?06:59
azonenbergsoul-d: for example pseudoephedrine, ammonium/potassium nitrate, and a few other things like that07:00
azonenbergi have no need for07:00
azonenbergi dont want anything to do with them, in fact07:00
soul-dplant supplents07:00
soul-dor thats nitrogen07:00
azonenbergi live downtown in a small city07:00
azonenbergno plants07:00
B0101azonenberg: nope. I was stopped JUST for carrying a large bag (it contained electronic parts, btw)07:00
azonenbergoh well thats somewhat reasonable then07:01
azonenbergbut it wasnt because you were on a watchlist?07:01
soul-dah well ill probably be on one now07:02
B0101azonenberg: they just went up to me and asked me if they could check my bag07:02
soul-dnot for chems though but did get caught growing my own herbs :P07:02
azonenbergi dont know for sure if i'm on any, but given my line of work and the number of people i know who have been investigated for one reason or another07:02
azonenbergif i'm not on a couple of watchlists, some intelligence analyst somewhere should probably be fired :p07:03
azonenbergunless they're so good they've already determined i'm doing nothing wrong but i think thahths unlikely07:03
soul-ddoubt that  since you provide   made up work07:03
kanzureazonenberg: i'll put in a good word for you next month at the fbi/diybio event07:04
azonenbergkanzure: thats what actually gave me the idea07:04
soul-dand services like to make up  work  so they can exists07:04
kanzurethey are always telling us that they don't have enough resources to make watchlists07:04
kanzurebut i am skeptical and/or scared if that's true07:04
azonenbergkanzure: i'd almost believe it07:04
soul-dthese day's police are just looking at twitter07:04
soul-dnothing more07:04
kanzuresoul-d: not really07:05
soul-doh here they do07:05
kanzureevery year the fbi flies me out to give presentations about amateur biohacking and transhumanism07:05
soul-darresting every twat that   makes a joke07:05
azonenbergsoul-d: i dont have a twitter07:05
soul-dme neither07:05
azonenbergand if people look at my facebook, well07:05
kanzurehere's notes from last year07:05
azonenbergthey're going to see photos of FPGAs07:05
azonenbergand hikes07:05
soul-din their eye's   probably rocket  chips and   terrorist training07:06
kanzure"(3) FBI responsibilities and capabilities not well understood or defined"07:06
soul-dyou must be up to somthing azonenberg  admit it  you are going for world domination07:06
azonenbergsoul-d: lol, actually07:07
azonenbergi have no interest in ruling the world07:07
azonenbergdictators get assassinated etc07:07
soul-dgood leave that bit to me then :)07:07
kanzurei am only interested in intergalacticc domination07:07
azonenbergi want to be left alone in my lab07:07
kanzurethe world is too small for my plans07:07
azonenbergjust look at me still talking while there's SCIENCE to do ;)07:07
azonenbergkanzure: and you guys are just bio, i dont do any bio stuff in my lab lol07:08
azonenbergit's all semiconductors07:08
kanzure"just bio" not quite07:08
azonenbergnow one would hope that if some investigator shows up and sees a 4" probing station, an oscilloscope, and a boat of 4-inch wafers it will be obvious what is going on07:08
kanzureit's because i am slacking on other projects :)07:08
kanzuretrue- wafers don't look particularly intimidating07:08
azonenbergi meant, they back up my claim of being a legit lab07:08
azonenbergconsidering how many are patterned :p07:09
azonenbergkanzure: any tips on how to appear less threatening?07:09
kanzureyes.. know your local fbi person07:09
azonenbergi'm running my lab as by-the-book as i can - MSDS book in a visible area where the landlord can find it (and i've told him about it)07:10
kanzurei am very serious actually07:10
azonenbergsecondary containment under all chemical storage07:10
kanzurei can hook you up with an agent07:10
kanzureyou will meet for coffee somewhere for 30-45 minutes07:10
azonenbergflammables isolated from sources of ignition and oxidizers07:10
kanzureshoot the shit a bit07:10
kanzureand that's about it07:10
kanzurewhen and if you ever get into trouble, you will call him up07:10
kanzureand show that you have fbi involvement07:10
azonenbergWould said person want to visit the lab in person?07:10
azonenbergor only see documentation07:10
kanzureuh usually they are super understanding if you don't want to show off your lab07:11
azonenbergBefore an incident i mean07:11
kanzureno they don't ask for documentation really07:11
azonenbergWorth looking into, i think07:11
kanzureit's more like "i would like you to be aware that i exist and that i am a person"07:11
azonenbergMy landlord is a retired chief of police for the city i live in and he's fully aware of what i'm doing07:11
azonenbergso thats a start07:11
kanzurei have some contacts with the weapons of mass destruction program and they would be happy to hook you up07:12
soul-dmaybe contact local fire deparment  or otherwise  use  contact  landlord still might have ?07:12
azonenberghe's around periodically and seen it in person, presumably knows enough drug/bomb making stuff that he knows its not what i'm donig07:12
azonenbergI'm still looking around07:12
kanzureeh just calling up a fire department isn't a good idea07:12
kanzureit's best that you just go through someone's rollodex so you don't call the wrong person07:12
azonenbergwhat i mainly do not want is to end up like my friend07:12
kanzureif you call the non-emergency line it's still super suspicious07:12
soul-dno said contact07:12
soul-dnot call07:12
azonenbergwho had the hazmat team show up at his front door lol07:12
kanzureazonenberg: what did he do?07:13
soul-dso that indeed implies you reserch for correct person07:13
azonenbergand drag him off in handcuffs07:13
azonenbergthat should link you to the rest of the articles on the incident07:13
azonenbergi'm trying to avoid a repeat of that07:13
soul-dlol azonenberg  you saw my  mess police saw it  din't care07:13
azonenbergsoul-d: well it depends on the region i'm sure07:13
soul-donly my herbs where important to them ( more then  a burgulary next door  )07:14
azonenbergi know for a fact that people here can be a bit triggerhappy when it comes to such things07:14
soul-dsince i got caught  cause i opend my door :(07:14
azonenbergand i want to avoid any misunderstandings07:14
kanzure"Police said they were alerted to the situation when an apartment tenant notified them of the vacuum chamber.07:14
kanzurea vacuum chamber?07:14
azonenbergkanzure: yes07:14
kanzurethat's what they were concerned about?07:14
azonenbergapparently they thought it was a bomb07:14
kanzurei should tip the police that my neighbors have an oven07:14
azonenbergit was admittedly a fairly large steel one07:14
azonenbergnot pumped down, though07:14
azonenbergstored depressurized in a safe manner07:15
azonenbergAnyaway so the guy was a classmate of mine and former business partner07:15
soul-dbut all this fear isn't  that  good07:15
azonenbergand lived the next town over from me07:15
soul-d for every bag  thats left07:15
soul-dbomb squad07:15
azonenbergSo it would look REALLY bad for me if anything of that sort happened lol07:15
superkuhLegislated mean free path limits...07:15
azonenbergwhich is why i am more concerned than if it was just a random person who lived nearby, i am connected to him lol07:16
kanzuresuperkuh: licenses, then, would be probabilistic07:16
azonenbergkanzure: anyway so you think you can put me in contact with someone from this area who actually knows what he's talking about?07:16
kanzureactually the field agents aren't necessarily that knowledgable07:17
kanzuresome of them are07:17
azonenbergkanzure: oh, so this goes higher up than the local field office?07:17
kanzurethe ones running the fbi/diybio program have some molecular biology background07:17
kanzureyour local field office probably has no particular expertise in semiconductor manufacturing07:18
azonenbergLol, probably07:18
kanzurewhere did you say you are?07:18
kanzurerpi? rti?07:18
azonenbergright across the hudson from albany07:18
B0101azonenberg: "charged with first-degree reckless endangerment, a felony, as well as second-degree obstructing governmental administration and resisting arrest, both misdemeanors07:19
B0101" just for possesing chemicals?07:19
azonenbergB0101: apparently the resisting arrest was for covering his face with his hands when body-slammed into the wall during the arrest07:19
soul-dcan't  you setup  a small paper  company  from home  or somthing the like ?07:19
kanzureazonenberg: would you be okay if i sent an email, and would you want me to CC or BCC you?07:19
soul-dlol in usa07:20
azonenbergkanzure: yes, and cc me zonena@rpi.edu07:20
soul-deven blinking is resisting arrest07:20
azonenbergB0101: and the obstruction was some equally absurd fabrication07:20
azonenbergi wasnt there so i dont know the full story07:20
azonenbergi do know in the end they dropped most charges and he paid a small fine and pled to some slap-on-the-wrist violation07:20
azonenbergwhich basically meant he walked and the city knew he wouldn't sue07:21
soul-dmaybe  smart to  have some vid cams  streaming to offsite location   for such ocassions :P07:21
azonenbergDoubt that would help much07:21
azonenbergIn any case, i know quite well how bad things can go once the feds show up at the door07:22
azonenbergor the local cops07:22
azonenbergSo i'm trying to avoid ever getting to that point07:22
soul-dyeah was scary with cop here07:22
soul-dwas allowed to make coffe07:22
soul-dbut whole counter sprayed with knifes and all07:22
soul-dso clearly stating what i was about to do  next07:22
kanzureazonenberg: actually, i'll send it tomorrow. 2am is probably not the right time for me to compose that particular email07:23
azonenbergkanzure: lol sure07:23
kanzurethey have been very happy about some community labs, but those actually incorporated into small businesses.. so those aren't really DIY anymroe07:23
azonenbergI'm in an area thats commercially zoned but the floor i'm on is an apartment07:24
kanzurethey seem to be okay with the LA biohackers group, which is not incorporated, although it is a group (albeit small)07:24
kanzureoh interesting. that's good07:24
azonenbergi've been very careful to isolate the lab from everything else07:24
azonenberglike, across a large room from living spaces07:24
azonenbergfull sprinkler coverage + extinguishers07:24
azonenbergand keeping volumes of all my materials to an absolute minimum07:25
kanzurehaha i'm not particularly worried about your attention to safety- i'm fairly confident in you07:25
azonenbergsince i work with such tiny volumes there's no reason to ever have a lot of anything07:25
kanzurei'm just not confident in myself to write the correct email at 2am ;)07:25
soul-dglad here  we  aren;t that far with our forces  although goverment is trying hard  to screw it over07:26
soul-dthey even started to use military against civilians ( "criminals")07:26
soul-dwich is in my eye's a very bad road to go down07:27
kanzuresoul-d: do you hear voices?07:27
soul-dno i do hear a continious tone  around 7000 herz07:28
soul-dwhy ? :P07:28
Action: B0101 wonders if people have ever been charged for posessing ammonia nitrate07:30
soul-dso that  probalby means im under cia controll07:30
azonenbergB0101: ammonium nitrate? It's legal afaik but they do watch who buys lots of it07:30
soul-dkmno4 is more dangerous07:30
soul-dmost dangerous chems  you can get at shops  for farmers  probably have a list  nex to  where you can order most other things07:33
B0101well, so i was thinking, why not ban water if people have died from drinking too much water? (just kidding though)07:33
B0101well, people ban many chemicals because they say its "unsafe"07:34
azonenbergB0101: http://www.dhmo.org/truth/Dihydrogen-Monoxide.html07:35
B0101ok, are you kidding me?07:37
B0101very funny though...07:39
azonenbergit does raise a rather frightening point07:39
azonenbergimagine something written just like this about something just a touc hless common07:39
azonenbergsay, acetic acid07:40
B0101wow, for all the non science people, it will really scare them07:40
azonenbergnow think about the fact that your government is run by non-science people07:41
azonenbergand you start to realize where the problem comes from07:41
soul-dnot knowing07:41
soul-dand we are training the people  to be fearful07:43
azonenbergfear of the known danger is fine07:43
azonenbergif you understand it07:43
azonenbergfear of the unknown is a problem07:43
soul-dthat  makes you irrational07:43
azonenbergAnd irrational people in power is never good07:44
azonenbergtherefore, since we can't remove them - they'll just be replaced by more irrational peopl07:45
azonenbergthe only option is to educate them07:45
soul-dwell we  here now trying to illigalize weed again :(  now when whole world ios basicly admitting our system was/is better07:45
soul-dparts of usa made it legal  and have medical  use  available07:46
soul-dand peopel in power ofcourse still talk  about alcohol  and drugs07:47
soul-dalcohol is hard drugs  lol  but stay's seperate always07:47
azonenbergWell that's one thing i'm going to disagree with07:48
azonenbergi'd like to see smoking of anything banned 100%, for starters07:48
azonenbergthere are much safer ways of getting your nicotine / THC / whatever07:48
azonenbergno need to fill your lungs up with tar07:48
soul-dthat alcohol is hard drugs ?07:49
soul-doh  sure07:49
azonenbergand i'd also like to see recreational use of mind-altering substances banned07:49
soul-dbut then you need to provide   methods  and  not make it so expensive that those methods  can't be paid07:49
azonenbergif you can convince a doctor that you need anything from morphine to THC then you should be able to get a prescription07:49
azonenbergbut it should be in refined medical-grade form07:50
azonenbergand only with demonstrated need07:50
soul-dno medical grade is bs07:50
soul-dit's standart07:50
azonenbergas in you should not be able to get a marijuana cigarette from a pharmacy07:50
soul-dnot medical07:50
azonenberga pill containing 200mg or whatever a normal dose of THC is, on the other hand07:50
azonenbergis no worse than a pill containing a similar dose of opiates07:50
soul-dhere you can only get  the herb  but nobody want's  the pharma stuff07:50
soul-dthere is no thc  pil07:51
azonenbergthe point is, it should be a medication07:51
soul-dcan't be pattented07:51
soul-dsyntetic is crap07:51
azonenbergand recreational use banned07:51
soul-ddon't agree07:51
azonenbergand of course, the more addictive versions should be prescribed only as a last resort07:51
soul-dthen ban capsine07:51
soul-dand all herbs07:51
soul-dcapsine is addictive07:51
azonenbergcaffeine you mean?07:51
soul-dcapsine amuun07:51
soul-dhot pepers07:51
azonenbergaddictive? how07:51
soul-dit is lightly addictive07:52
azonenbergBut not psychoactive as far as i know07:52
azonenbergand is primarily sought for its taste07:52
azonenbergi'm talking about consuming anything for the sake of getting a high07:52
soul-dthats why  we have pepers07:53
soul-dover 1 mln shu07:53
azonenbergshould be completely banned07:53
soul-dpeople arer addicts07:53
azonenbergwell ok, those people are07:53
azonenbergbut you can get addicted to sugar too07:53
soul-dban that to yes07:53
soul-dand al mono glutamate salts07:53
soul-dand other crap07:53
soul-dthey put in food07:53
azonenbergbut again, the main thing is that smoking of anything should be outlawed07:53
azonenbergdoesnt matter what it is07:53
azonenbergthere is no medicinal reason07:54
soul-dban cars :)07:54
azonenbergif it has to be inhaled, atomize the active ingredient07:54
soul-duntil then i smoke what i want  if i want  but i agree  weed should be in sufficient  amount availle to be able to extract  oil or sure it other meathods like tea07:54
azonenbergthats the thing, i dont think it should be available to the public unrestricted07:55
azonenbergany more than, say, morphine07:55
azonenbergyou can get it from a doctor if you need it07:55
soul-dno you can't  here07:55
soul-dunless you dieing from somthing07:55
azonenbergHence "need"07:55
azonenbergand why morphine is only prescribed when everythign else has failed07:55
azonenbergas should all highly addictive drugs with a less addictive substitute07:56
azonenbergpersonally i'd like to see ethanol eliminated too07:56
azonenbergbut you can't ban it suddenly, that backfired horribly last time it was tried07:57
azonenbergjust slowly increase taxes until it costs $100 a glass07:57
soul-dwell don't agree with you on that  point people should be able to make up their own minds07:57
azonenbergand keep on going up07:57
azonenbergeventually stores will stop selling it on their own07:57
azonenbergdue to lack of business07:57
soul-dweed is an unalterd natural product    for people in your country07:57
B0101ban smoking 100%??? that seems like a good idea07:57
azonenbergB0101: ethanol07:57
soul-dgenisis 1:29 should be sufficient07:57
azonenbergsmoking should come first07:57
soul-dwich says god gave me it07:57
azonenbergsoul-d: and if you're going down that line of reasoning07:57
azonenberggod gave you poison arrow frogs07:58
azonenberggo smoke them07:58
azonenbergthen try to stagger over to a corner before you die07:58
azonenbergso your rotting corpse won't stink up the rest of the room :p07:58
azonenbergpoint is, natural != healthy07:58
azonenbergethanol comes from fermented grain, sure07:58
azonenbergso does botulism07:58
soul-dexplain why  we have cannabinoid reptors07:59
soul-dall other drugs you talk about is poisinous effecty07:59
soul-dunlike cannabis07:59
azonenbergprobably meant to bind to some neurotransmitter that thc happens to look like07:59
Sync_haha I just bought quite a lot of nitric here08:00
azonenbergand just so you know i am not a religious fanatic08:00
azonenbergSync_: i've been considering picking some up so i can decap more08:00
Sync_but kno3 is starting to get strange to acquire08:00
azonenbergnow that i have proper ventilated exhaust08:00
soul-danyhow i don't think you should think about banning stuff other peopel do whilst you want to work with possible dangerous chems :)08:00
azonenbergsoul-d: i'm not putting them into my body though08:00
azonenbergin fact i'm taking extreme precautions to make sure of that08:00
soul-dbut in my air08:00
soul-dor water08:00
soul-dor nature08:01
azonenbergi collect all of my liquid waste08:01
soul-dand i don't want you to do that08:01
azonenbergand cover containers as much as i can to keep gaseous emissions to a minimum08:01
soul-dadn you bring it some where else08:01
soul-dso you  do somthing and then give it to rest of world08:01
soul-dand say see what you do with it08:01
azonenbergmost of my liquid waste is just acids with metal salts in them08:02
azonenbergeasy to precipitate out08:02
azonenbergi just dont have the equipment for it08:02
soul-danyhow you get my  point  you can't ban stuff08:02
soul-dit won't work08:02
soul-dand illigalize people08:02
soul-dor criminalize them for using08:02
soul-dmakes only stuff worse08:02
azonenbergselling stuff on the street should, imo, be a capital offense08:03
azonenbergexecute enough dealers and the rest will go away08:03
azonenbergproblem solved08:03
soul-dbut in country where you can legaly  as cop08:03
soul-dtry to lure poeple into doing bad things08:03
soul-dlike trying to sell them drugs08:03
soul-dand arrest them if they as much look at it08:03
azonenbergif someone tried to sell me something i'd turn them in08:04
B0101sould-d: the US have already did that08:04
Sync_wut azonenberg08:04
azonenbergSync_: you heard me08:04
azonenbergif someone tried to sell me drugs i'd turn him in08:04
soul-dcop is trying to sell you08:04
Sync_and why azonenberg?08:04
azonenbergsoul-d: i dont know he's a cop08:04
azonenbergbut he's selling drugs in my town08:05
azonenbergi want him gone08:05
azonenbergif he is a cop, he'll leave me along08:05
azonenbergif he isnt, he goes away in handcuffs08:05
azonenbergeither way problem solved08:05
soul-dworld is not that black and white08:05
Sync_I really do not care08:05
soul-dnot in usa08:05
Sync_and yeah it is not that black and white anywhere in the world08:05
soul-dyou probaly downward with  cuffs on if you try to call cops08:05
B0101soul-d: do you know about the MKULTRA project by the CIA?08:05
soul-dread  about it once  in some conspiracy thing08:06
soul-dbut probably was high and forgot what it was about08:06
B0101it was said that the CIA planted mind control drugs in people's drinks while they were away08:06
azonenbergB0101: cia or would-be mugger, if a drink is out of my sight in a public place08:07
azonenbergit's garbage08:07
soul-doh yeah mind controll stuff thats hy i said i might be under cia controll08:07
azonenbergand if i ever step away from a table in the cafeteria etc i always am looking at it every few seconds08:07
B0101and then, it was said that they then controlled the person to kill John F. Kennedy08:07
azonenbergmostly for would-be laptop thieves08:07
soul-dmy glas usaly emptey before i put it down08:08
soul-dbut those story's are intresting at times most of times far fetched08:09
B0101but well, as always, citation needed08:09
soul-dmore intrested in bilderberg  stuff and world goverment /control08:09
soul-dthey are bout to meet again so hope on some good conspiracies emerging soon :)08:10
azonenbergsoul-d: go ask nathan708:10
azonenberghe should have plenty of crazy theories after his last LSD experiment :p08:11
soul-da good reason to be nice  to my queen  and wave the flag every year :)08:11
B0101azonenberg: btw, for some reason, none of my lab mates undertood what was dihydrogen monoxide or hydrogen hydroxide08:11
azonenbergthat is... scary08:12
soul-dsee i don't do stuff like that and could care less for those stuff  also mushrooms  truffels other08:12
B0101azonenberg: i had to tell them to write out the chemical formula before they found out i meant water08:12
soul-di only care for weed since i know that  helps problem is hard to prove   especialy  without medical cooperation08:13
azonenbergsoul-d: i dont deny it has some beneficial effects, i just think it shouldn't be used for enjoyment08:13
azonenbergand, on top of that08:13
azonenberggiven its known tendencies to cause addiction should be a last resort08:14
azonenbergprescribed when all other known medications have failed08:14
azonenbergand, if unbiased studies cant show it does anything other drugs cant08:14
azonenbergkeep it on the illegal list since other things do the job better08:15
soul-dtried sleeping pills hort while but doesn't attack all problems weed does it all  sleep /concetration   it doesn't need to have bad  side effects although i agree i use the quick fix to08:15
soul-dweed isn't realy addictive08:15
soul-dat most a day or 308:15
soul-dadn if it's soked with tabbaco08:15
soul-dyou probalby got other addiction to worry about08:16
soul-dall the research against08:16
soul-dweed is biased08:16
soul-dor such small scale08:16
soul-dadn those  papers get qouted over and over08:16
soul-dand then you read the study was amonst  10 highly aadictive youngster who started using all kinsd of drugs  before adulthood08:17
soul-dsure i can find problems that way to08:17
azonenbergyour argument still doesnt hold water, i've seen no evidence that marijuana can do anything that other less addictive substances can't08:17
azonenbergthe question is not whether it works08:17
azonenbergthe question is whether it's the best tool for the job08:18
azonenbergand so far the answer seems no08:18
soul-dit is :)08:18
soul-dit's cheaper  cleaner less side effects08:18
azonenbergyou call that cloud of tars and carcinogens clean?08:18
soul-dwith out crap that isn;t needed08:18
soul-dyou still only think smoking08:18
soul-dbut you can  put it in mineral oil08:18
soul-dand rub it on08:18
soul-dor in tea08:19
soul-dextract oil08:19
soul-dand use it with vegatable oil08:19
azonenbergand still, in any case, you're giving no actual real data08:19
azonenbergor links to any peer-reviewed work08:19
soul-doh yeah08:19
soul-dresearch uyourself08:19
azonenbergso i say [citation needed] :p08:19
soul-dill give uyou the books moment08:19
azonenbergi dont need them08:20
Action: azonenberg gets back to coding08:20
soul-di know08:20
soul-dbut then you don;t have any arguments anymore08:20
soul-dexcept you don't like people haveing expierences08:21
Action: azonenberg would also prefer that education stop cramming everyone into buckets08:21
azonenbergand let people go faster or slower if they can/cant keep up08:21
soul-dCannabinoids [Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology 168] - R. Pertwee (Springer, 2005) WW08:21
soul-dCannabis - The Genus Cannabis - D. Brown (Harwood, 1998) WW08:21
azonenbergthere is no reason why the top ~20% of high school students couldn't be doing a lot more advanced stuff than they are08:22
soul-dUnderstanding Marijuana - A New Look at the Scientific Evidence - M. Earleywine (Oxford, 2002) WW08:23
azonenbergin general i think our current society is full of waste and underachievers08:23
soul-deducation is failing rapidly these years08:23
soul-di agree08:23
azonenbergthere are entire careers that contribute nothing to society08:23
soul-dand  jobs that used to be done   by young people as side job became full jobs08:24
soul-dlike working in clothes shop08:25
soul-dused to be done by the girl that likes clothe4s08:25
soul-dnow  they lure girls in to  school telling them they will eb designers08:25
azonenbergthe whole industry seems like a waste08:25
soul-dthats the word08:25
soul-dthats how the course is called08:26
azonenbergit just results in needless turnover of perfectly good garments08:26
soul-dand there all kinds of stuff like that08:27
soul-deducation is big bussiness to08:27
azonenbergand people look at it like "creating jobs"08:27
soul-di hated that08:27
azonenberggiving people jobs that waste money and contribute nothing to society is a problem, not a solution08:27
soul-dwhen i was working i a factory08:27
azonenbergi mean, sure people need work08:27
azonenbergbut make them do work that produces something08:27
soul-dthe higher would  go look aroudnwith you for 20 min08:27
soul-dto find work08:27
azonenbergbe it knowledge or a physical device08:28
azonenbergevery job should produce something08:28
azonenbergif at the end of the day you can't say how your job made the world a better place08:28
azonenbergmaybe it doesn't need to be done08:28
soul-dhence why i doing prettymuch nothing :)08:29
soul-dcan't make it much worse either08:30
soul-dgrowing tomato's  pepers  some  food herbs   will need to startup some more stuff this month08:31
soul-dsee if that works   should be usefull :)08:31
soul-dinstead of trying to get tomato's from spain to here08:31
soul-din any case i don't feel obliged to do anything  much  just an observer  i do might complain wich is my job :)08:34
soul-danyhow  got to do some paper work  at local office08:35
B0101azonenberg: i have to thank you08:43
azonenbergB0101: for what08:43
B0101your joke about DHMO make my report typing session fun (well, thinking about it makes me laugh)08:44
B0101shame that i have to control my laughter (me is in library)08:46
azonenbergi'm sitting at my desk kept awake by nothing but energy and the desire to get this proposal done with08:48
azonenbergi got nowhere near enough sleep and was falling asleep yesterday afternoon in a meeting08:48
azonenbergnow next thing i know it's 5 AM and i'm coding and not too tired08:48
soul-dadrenaline rush08:49
soul-dshould be forbidden to :P08:49
Action: B0101 cannot keep awake w/o coffee 08:49
B0101well, sometimes coffee does not work08:50
B0101they keep resetting me08:56
--- Fri May 4 201200:00

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