| bart416 | azonenberg, our professor digital circuit design adviced me to go TTL anyway | 18:19 |
|---|---|---|
| bart416 | And told me to get the book Digital Integrated Electronics by Herbert Taub | 18:19 |
| bart416 | In other words, I just ordered it heh | 18:20 |
| horizontally | did you check library.nu ? | 19:13 |
| bart416 | dunno | 19:46 |
| bart416 | University library also has the book | 19:46 |
| bart416 | But I want to design this over the winter break | 19:46 |
| bart416 | VTech is in the news again... | 19:46 |
| bart416 | Somebody is trying to beat the highscore | 19:46 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Somebody's shooting them up *again*? | 20:37 |
| bart416 | yeah | 20:37 |
| bart416 | Current score: 2 | 20:37 |
| azonenberg | You'd think they would have locked down a bit | 20:37 |
| bart416 | High score: 32 | 20:37 |
| azonenberg | Two wounded or two fatalities? | 20:37 |
| bart416 | Two fatalities | 20:37 |
| bart416 | A cop and somebody else | 20:38 |
| azonenberg | And I bet campus security still doesnt carry firearms | 20:38 |
| bart416 | Honnestly all firearms should be banned on campus | 20:38 |
| bart416 | I don't even get the need for firearms at all for most people | 20:38 |
| azonenberg | On the contrary, the bad guys will have them anyway | 20:38 |
| bart416 | Especially pistols | 20:38 |
| bart416 | How much shootings happen in Europe per year? | 20:38 |
| azonenberg | Its pretty hard to lock down all entrances to something as large as a suburban college campus | 20:38 |
| azonenberg | So you want to be ready in case something does happen | 20:39 |
| azonenberg | I mean, a skilled shooter is going to be piling up the bodies very rapidly | 20:39 |
| azonenberg | Say, crowded auditorium or lecture hall with a semiauto | 20:39 |
| azonenberg | Two in the chest, one in the head, three seconds per kill | 20:39 |
| azonenberg | Three to four kills per magazine | 20:39 |
| azonenberg | plus at most five seconds to change | 20:40 |
| azonenberg | In 90 seconds you have over ten bodies and the cops are four minutes off | 20:40 |
| bart416 | Yeah, then again you assume a person can get a semiautomatic weapon legally | 20:40 |
| bart416 | That's not the case here | 20:40 |
| bart416 | And illegally it's almost impossible to get as well | 20:40 |
| azonenberg | Do you have drug cartels over there that you can buy from? | 20:40 |
| azonenberg | I figured as much | 20:40 |
| bart416 | Not really no | 20:40 |
| azonenberg | Its easier to get them illegally | 20:40 |
| bart416 | Our police doesn't have to investigate shootings or arrest protesters all the time | 20:40 |
| azonenberg | Therefore, you can either sit down and get shot, or be prepared to fight back | 20:41 |
| smeding | it's not entirely a matter of availability | 20:41 |
| bart416 | + drugs isn't strictly illegal | 20:41 |
| smeding | though i think it helps | 20:41 |
| smeding | it's also a matter of culture | 20:41 |
| bart416 | So they have time to get rid of all the illegal arms trade going on | 20:41 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Well, around here drugs fund the arms trade :p | 20:41 |
| bart416 | Only some robers manage to get AK-47s, and those are very rare | 20:42 |
| bart416 | 1-2 cases / year | 20:42 |
| azonenberg | The Mexican cartels have AKs all the time but i think most of the really nasty stuff is near the border | 20:42 |
| azonenberg | But they smuggle pistols up north to arm the dealers | 20:42 |
| bart416 | Here there never has been a "omg we need guns to defend ourselves" mentality | 20:42 |
| soul-d | here people with guns are by definition bad people | 20:43 |
| bart416 | Well realising that if we make firearms easy to get that more things will happen with them | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | Well, around here there is no room for doubt that the bad guys are armed | 20:43 |
| soul-d | almost all * | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | So the question is, do you want the good guys to be too? | 20:43 |
| soul-d | no | 20:43 |
| bart416 | Only police and military have the serious weapons. | 20:43 |
| bart416 | Pistols are near impossible to get | 20:43 |
| soul-d | onliy police etc | 20:43 |
| bart416 | And hunting rifles are only slow loading ones | 20:43 |
| bart416 | Nothing semi automatic | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | bart416: I'm talking campus security carrying pistols | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | That would help with the initial response time significantly | 20:43 |
| bart416 | That's an accident waiting to happen | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | get eyes and a weapon on scene quickly | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | My guess is, campus security could respond to any location inside 90 seconds | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | With an expert shooter you'd have around fifteen bodies already | 20:44 |
| soul-d | here density of people v.s guns is low | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | So do you want to wait another ten minutes for SWAT? | 20:44 |
| bart416 | You don't want armed guards walking around potentially drunk students | 20:44 |
| soul-d | sure since i don't trust the next person with a fun | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | Might make those students behave better | 20:44 |
| soul-d | gun * | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | And you need people to be trained better | 20:45 |
| bart416 | Here the police for example employs a simple system around students | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | There is no doubt about that, most cops are not at all qualified | 20:45 |
| soul-d | if you want to live in a 1984 world sure | 20:45 |
| bart416 | No lethal weapons | 20:45 |
| soul-d | but a guard | 20:45 |
| soul-d | next to every person | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: College campuses are, right now, soft targets | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | You know nobody is armed | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | So if you want a high body count you go there vs say a mall or movie theater | 20:45 |
| bart416 | Tazers sometimes | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | where you might find a legal CCW holder | 20:46 |
| soul-d | yes | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | The question is, why has nobody fixed that? | 20:46 |
| soul-d | but you are working on fear | 20:46 |
| soul-d | wich is just stupid | 20:46 |
| bart416 | The fix is easy, ban weapons | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Good luck | 20:46 |
| bart416 | Oh, that's already the case here | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | It'd work about as well as banning marijuana | 20:46 |
| bart416 | So not much luck needed | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | my guess is they're about as easy to get | 20:46 |
| bart416 | Marijuana is pretty much legal here lol | 20:46 |
| bart416 | Police won't arrest you if you have a few grams on you | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Point is, there is so much out there that its impossible to get it all off the streets | 20:47 |
| azonenberg | same thing with illegal weapons | 20:47 |
| azonenberg | So again, the question is whether you want to fight back or sit back and get shot | 20:47 |
| bart416 | The issue is your fear response culture | 20:47 |
| azonenberg | Because "the bad guys have guns" is a given | 20:47 |
| soul-d | and they will use them | 20:47 |
| bart416 | Due to the lack of weapons here less people get shot | 20:47 |
| soul-d | is you have a gun | 20:47 |
| bart416 | Look at the armed crime rate | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: You're saying if campus security was armed we'd have *more* mass shootings? | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | It would act as a deterrent | 20:48 |
| bart416 | Its far lower than in the US | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | as well as reducing the number of fatalities once someone does snap | 20:48 |
| bart416 | While we're far more densly populated | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | bart416: like i said, less drug crime | 20:48 |
| bart416 | Well, people who snap here have a knife at most | 20:48 |
| bart416 | Cause they can't get a gun | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | bart416: So then you get people using explosives | 20:49 |
| azonenberg | Even worse | 20:49 |
| soul-d | and that you won't fix by allowing guns | 20:49 |
| azonenberg | Look at all of what the IRA was doing | 20:49 |
| bart416 | Last serious attempt at terrorism in Belgium has been decades lol | 20:49 |
| azonenberg | you're telling me banning guns stopped them? | 20:49 |
| azonenberg | bart416: I'm talking britain | 20:49 |
| bart416 | Britain is not the same as mainland Europe | 20:50 |
| azonenberg | Their situation is more directly comparable to the USA | 20:50 |
| soul-d | we din't dig the canal for nothing | 20:50 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, not really | 20:50 |
| bart416 | Most police officers in the UK aren't even armed | 20:50 |
| bart416 | Still, far lower crime rate | 20:50 |
| azonenberg | bart416: I'd be willing to bet that if you somehow managed to get all the guns off the street in a major city in the USA | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | You'd just see stabbings skyrocket | 20:51 |
| bart416 | That's a mentality problem with your fear culture | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | The drug dealers are still fighting over their turf | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | They'd just change weapons | 20:51 |
| bart416 | You all feel the need to cary weapons | 20:51 |
| bart416 | If you had people weapons they'll fight each other no matter what | 20:51 |
| soul-d | i think there was a good bbc | 20:52 |
| soul-d | on it | 20:52 |
| soul-d | documentary | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | bart416: The drug dealers will fight each other no matter what, with sticks and stones if necessary :p | 20:52 |
| bart416 | Well, ever considered that the police will have an easier time getting rid of them if they're not armed as well? | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | There's a motorcycle gang on the other end of town and i know for a fact that most of them carry knives openly | 20:52 |
| soul-d | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | Would not at all be surprised if most have concealed handguns too | 20:53 |
| soul-d | so | 20:53 |
| soul-d | din't you want people to carry weapons | 20:53 |
| soul-d | or only certain people ? | 20:54 |
| soul-d | egg police | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | In this particular case, campus security as a minimum | 20:54 |
| soul-d | well go to that gang | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | Obviously you would want to have stricter training requirements | 20:54 |
| soul-d | ask for security probably nice people | 20:54 |
| bart416 | Generally most motorcyclist gangs are filled with softies heh | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | Because i can say for a fact that most people with handgun permits, and probably most police, are not qualified | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | couldnt shoot a fish in a barrel | 20:55 |
| soul-d | but just 10 ago you wantend campus | 20:55 |
| azonenberg | And certainly not an active shooter without endangering bystanders | 20:55 |
| soul-d | to carry guns | 20:55 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: I was saying, train them better and THEN arm them | 20:55 |
| soul-d | sorry the wage is to low for such jobs | 20:55 |
| bart416 | The thing is, most people with these weapons are not trained at all | 20:55 |
| soul-d | you never get enough trained people | 20:55 |
| bart416 | You're suggesting regular people can get them | 20:55 |
| bart416 | These people do not receive training | 20:56 |
| bart416 | Additionally these people are also capable of snapping and just shooting random by standers | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | bart416: I do not support restrictions (beyond criminal and psych background checks) on who *can* purchase a weapon | 20:56 |
| soul-d | and people with newfound powers will abuse them :) | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | however i also support mandating much stronger training than is in place now | 20:56 |
| bart416 | Here if somebody snaps at most they'll punch you | 20:56 |
| bart416 | In the US they have a concealed weapon and they can use it | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | If you want the gov't to trust you with a car, you have to pass a test | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | etc | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | And the "purchase a handgun" test should involve probably 40+ hours of range time including shoot/no-shoot drills | 20:57 |
| soul-d | same here for weapons but we had a schooting for a crazy kid | 20:57 |
| soul-d | he was member of club and all | 20:57 |
| soul-d | all legal | 20:57 |
| soul-d | and also shot 6 people | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: Those are very rare, and better psych background checking would have probably helped | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | Most of these lunatics were obviously losing it | 20:57 |
| soul-d | yes would cause he was crazy | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | First, weed out the psychopaths and criminals | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | Then make sure the rest know what they're doing | 20:58 |
| soul-d | to many people still and again if you want to live in a 1984 world | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | You're saying we dont already? | 20:58 |
| soul-d | where sombody with a gun is checking your every move | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | Phone companies are recording every keystroke on your smartphone | 20:59 |
| soul-d | doesn't mean you have to make it worse | 20:59 |
| azonenberg | It's common knowledge that NSA did, and probably still does, tap phone calls whenever and wherever it wants | 20:59 |
| azonenberg | And if the civilians are armed too, it will at least increase the odds of stopping the nutjob | 20:59 |
| soul-d | true netherlands is actualy most phone tapped country | 20:59 |
| bart416 | <azonenberg> Phone companies are recording every keystroke on your smartphone <-- Not really | 20:59 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: Whats your source on that? | 21:00 |
| soul-d | but also increases amount of nutjobs | 21:00 |
| soul-d | with guns | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | I wasnt aware that intelligence published stats | 21:00 |
| bart416 | Not a single phone company here pre installs Carrier IQ on their phones | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | bart416: cIQ is the first tool like that *to be detected* | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | how many other carriers have something similar that wasnt found yet? | 21:00 |
| soul-d | it's probably a geustimate | 21:00 |
| bart416 | Actually many are known | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | I'm willing to bet, all of them | 21:00 |
| bart416 | + it's against EU privacy policy :) | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | Tapping civilians w/o warrants also violates federal law | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | Did that stop them? | 21:01 |
| azonenberg | Big Brother is watching, get over it | 21:01 |
| bart416 | Oh but why don't you use your guns to defend your rights? | 21:01 |
| soul-d | in that news source | 21:01 |
| azonenberg | I'm not furrywolf here advocating a violent revolution | 21:01 |
| bart416 | Like the general excuse given to own guns | 21:01 |
| azonenberg | I just wnat to be able to fight back if somebody starts shooting at me | 21:01 |
| soul-d | it says only 2000 telephone taps where placed in usa where 1700 where placed in netherlands a day ( sounds to farfected to me on 200mln people ) | 21:02 |
| bart416 | + honnestly I could do more damage with something I could build in the electronics lab in an afternoon than with an automatic machine gun | 21:02 |
| soul-d | 200 on a year | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: 2000 taps? Not even remotely close | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | there are more, i'm quite sure of that | 21:02 |
| soul-d | yeah now i reread it sounds to few to be true | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Full auto is just stupid | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | if you want to do damage you want a semi | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | Even a bolt action if you're good enough with it | 21:02 |
| bart416 | I could still cause way more damage | 21:03 |
| azonenberg | Depedns on what your skills are, i guess | 21:03 |
| azonenberg | I have no clue how to build an explosive device :p | 21:03 |
| azonenberg | but i can get pretty good accuracy with a rifle at 200m | 21:03 |
| azonenberg | Back to my original point though... campus security at my school could probably get anywhere within 60-90 seconds on a top priority call | 21:04 |
| bart416 | We have no campus security | 21:04 |
| azonenberg | local cops at least five minuts and county swat probably ten | 21:04 |
| bart416 | And the last time somebody died on campus was a suicide over three decades ago | 21:04 |
| azonenberg | bart416: And when was the last time you had a student mugged by the locals? | 21:04 |
| bart416 | On campus? | 21:04 |
| azonenberg | Within a block or two | 21:04 |
| azonenberg | campus security keeps them off the campus proper | 21:04 |
| bart416 | Our campus is on the border of the city so hard to tell in terms of blocks :P | 21:05 |
| azonenberg | And we havent had fatalities here since a suicide about five years ago and that was the first in a long time | 21:05 |
| soul-d | most campuses here are not near blocks usaly | 21:05 |
| bart416 | I'd have to say it's been a few years as well | 21:05 |
| bart416 | + European cities don't really have blocks lol | 21:05 |
| bart416 | You'd probably get lost here | 21:05 |
| bart416 | The campus is spread all over city | 21:05 |
| azonenberg | But every month or two we have someone get jumped by a bunch of locals | 21:05 |
| azonenberg | Rarely, if ever, do they present a gun | 21:05 |
| azonenberg | usually it's knives or fists | 21:05 |
| bart416 | The worst that has happened here was a rapist in a park nearby a few years ago | 21:06 |
| azonenberg | They want their drug money, they know students have laptops and other things worth selling | 21:06 |
| azonenberg | So they go take it | 21:06 |
| azonenberg | The stupidest part IMO is that they always surrender without a fight | 21:06 |
| bart416 | Here they realise they'l be surrounded by a bunch of students and get beaten into he hospital | 21:07 |
| bart416 | *the | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | That happened once | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | For the first time in years one of the students fought back | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | broke the nose of one attacker and the rest fled | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | not sure if any of them were caught | 21:07 |
| bart416 | They sometimes try it on the places we go out | 21:07 |
| bart416 | Lets just say if it's spotted the criminals don't get far | 21:07 |
| soul-d | usa in general is just weird probably has something to do with teaching kids overconfidence | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: overconfidence? These guys are sheep | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | they do whatever the guy says even if they're bigger than he is and he doenst show a weapon | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | We had a guy hand over his laptop to an unarmed twelve-year-old :p | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | I am not kidding | 21:08 |
| bart416 | Like somebody started a fight in the bar we're normally at | 21:08 |
| bart416 | We "escorted" him outside | 21:08 |
| bart416 | And showed his head that a plastic trash can cause a concussion :p | 21:09 |
| bart416 | *can can | 21:09 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:09 |
| bart416 | And then handed him over to the police | 21:09 |
| bart416 | lol "safe" green energy | 21:10 |
| azonenberg | Also, lol @ campus security stats | 21:10 |
| bart416 | A wind turbine in scotland exploded due to huricane strength winds | 21:10 |
| azonenberg | they dont list any one of the off-campus incidents from the last year | 21:10 |
| bart416 | + nobody bothers to steal phones here anymore | 21:11 |
| bart416 | They get locked within hours anyway | 21:11 |
| bart416 | So they become completely useless | 21:11 |
| azonenberg | ipod, phone, laptop are all top targets for these guys | 21:11 |
| azonenberg | So, one must ask the question - why do the students sit down and take it? | 21:12 |
| bart416 | Your fear mentality | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | Just a minut ago you were saying that made us all carry guns | 21:13 |
| soul-d | watch adam curtis documantary's | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | now you're saying it makes people not fight back? | 21:13 |
| soul-d | it will explain | 21:13 |
| bart416 | It does both | 21:13 |
| soul-d | you fear | 21:13 |
| soul-d | everyone | 21:13 |
| soul-d | trust no other person | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | Because i can guarantee that if i ever was approached by a would-be mugger I would fight with whatever i had on me | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | even if i had to club him with my flashlight | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | Even if overpowered in the end, i'd know that he had to fight for whatever he got | 21:17 |
| soul-d | they look for the weak ofcourse and not someone that might struggle | 21:17 |
| soul-d | and in the moment yo never realy know id probably choose the one that ensures my saftey first | 21:20 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: That's assuming they managed to get close enough, I generally look over my shoulder and maintain good situational awareness | 21:23 |
| azonenberg | Most of the folks who get jumped have headphones on | 21:23 |
| azonenberg | and are completely oblivious to their surroundings | 21:23 |
| soul-d | sure i do that | 21:23 |
| soul-d | indeed | 21:24 |
| azonenberg | But a surprising number of people dont | 21:24 |
| azonenberg | You're broadcasting two pieces of information | 21:24 |
| azonenberg | first, you are carrying an ipod or similar device that is easily sellable on the black market, easy to conceal, and relatively valuable | 21:24 |
| azonenberg | Second, you can't hear the guy coming | 21:24 |
| soul-d | here there is a trend with openly playing their music in small boxes on them or somthing | 21:26 |
| soul-d | but those people are hazard in trafic also already | 21:26 |
| azonenberg | Lol, yeah | 21:29 |
| soul-d | also most on tv in usa | 21:39 |
| soul-d | is violence | 21:39 |
| soul-d | at least leass hassle about that then a tit that shows a bit skin or a skin colored suit | 21:40 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:41 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, i dont get why popular culture considers it more acceptable to show murdering someone than sleeping with them | 21:41 |
| soul-d | not even that but nakedness in general is worse then violence acts | 21:49 |
| bart416 | soul-d, religious based values... | 21:50 |
| bart416 | lol, somebody hijacked a germanium diode to make a point contact transistor :') | 21:55 |
| bart416 | That's weak, we've used a giant block of germanium for that in the electronics lab | 21:55 |
| bart416 | material "sample" lol | 21:55 |
| bart416 | It's a pretty heavy slab | 21:55 |
| bart416 | Remarkable current capacity actually lol | 21:55 |
| soul-d | hehe | 21:56 |
| soul-d | iran showed the drone they catched | 21:56 |
| bart416 | Though that might be more related to the size of the thing than anything else | 21:56 |
| bart416 | Yeah, it's not a wood and paper fake for once! | 21:56 |
| soul-d | i believe iran before i do usa | 21:57 |
| soul-d | almost blindly | 21:57 |
| bart416 | Iran hasn't had the best believable news report history | 21:58 |
| bart416 | Their new revolutionary assault craft was what we'd classify as WWII era fighters... | 21:58 |
| bart416 | The only reason western jets wouldn't be able to shoot them is cause they crash before they get in range or they're too slow | 21:58 |
| soul-d | from same sources as nuclear info i geuss ? | 22:00 |
| bart416 | Official Iran newsreports lol | 22:01 |
| bart416 | They were actually proud to demonstrate it... | 22:01 |
| soul-d | don't think they are top of art but they probably can get their hands on rusian stuff | 22:01 |
| bart416 | Hence why it was funny :) | 22:02 |
| soul-d | and rusian stuff | 22:02 |
| soul-d | is better then new jets we are making | 22:02 |
| soul-d | joint strike fightwer | 22:02 |
| bart416 | JSF is a joke | 22:03 |
| bart416 | They made it into a joke | 22:03 |
| bart416 | US needs to stop this entire management outsourcement capitalism bullshit | 22:03 |
| bart416 | + Space program is the source of many revolutionary aircraft designs | 22:04 |
| bart416 | So getting rid of NASA funding is like running towards your own goal and scoring | 22:04 |
| soul-d | doesn't make enoguh profit for certain people | 22:05 |
| soul-d | war is bussiness | 22:05 |
| bart416 | Honnestly we could have been standing on the moon decades ago if it wasn't for greed | 22:06 |
| bart416 | *mars | 22:06 |
| --- Fri Dec 9 2011 | 00:00 | |
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