#homecmos IRC log for Friday, 2011-12-02

--- Fri Dec 2 201100:00
reportingsjrazonenberg: what scope do you have?05:50
azonenbergScope, singular05:50
azonenbergthat implies i only have one05:50
reportingsjrheh05:50
azonenbergI have three05:50
reportingsjrDSO and analog?05:50
azonenbergOh, i thought you meant microscope :p05:50
reportingsjrwhat are they all?05:50
reportingsjroh, sorry05:51
reportingsjroscilloscope, haha05:51
azonenbergMy oscilloscope is a 100mhz Rigol mixed signal05:51
reportingsjrDS1025E?05:51
azonenbergMight be, not in the lab atm05:53
azonenbergdrawing up vacuum system schematics05:53
reportingsjrinteresting..05:53
reportingsjrfor what? :P05:53
azonenbergEventually? Sputtering and evapo ;)05:53
reportingsjrcool, cool05:54
horizontallysputtering, very cool07:45
horizontallyevaporation... why is that useful?07:45
horizontallylike if you have sputtering, what's the advantage of evaporating something07:45
horizontallyless substrate damage?07:46
bart416azonenberg, I found the flaw in designspark13:23
bart416It's autorouter sucks even more than eagle's :(13:23
bart416why is it only cadence has managed to get autorouting down to a reliable point?13:24
bart416And it can only route in rectangles :(13:26
soul-di like how eagle has it so that you can't undo autoroute :)13:35
reportingsjryou're much better off routing everything by hand with eagle13:36
reportingsjrno point in even attempting to autoroute most of the times13:36
bart416I mean honnestly there are only 3-4 programs that are worth using to design PCBs13:43
bart416OrCAD/Allegro, Altium, ADS and some prehistoric predecessor of altium13:44
bart416OrCAD is the best on average13:46
bart416Altium has the nicest capture engine13:46
bart416And ADS the best simulation engine13:46
bart416You can sort of half assed combine allegro and ads13:46
bart416But then you lose some of the functionality of ADS (like tuning filters and oscillators)13:46
bart416But I swear the combination of those two has saved me days of work already13:47
bart416and the opensource pcb software is a joke when it comes to routing13:48
bart416Another side bonus of ADS is that it can interface with quite a lot of measurement equipment or at the very least simulate it13:53
horizontallywow bart416's rant ~5 hours ago was totally useful to me18:46
horizontallyi don't know much about electrical CAD18:46
bart416no no no, that was not a rant18:53
bart416If I was to rant I'd spend a few pages describing how much eagle sucks :p18:54
horizontallywhat is it good for?18:54
horizontallyi'd love to hear that rant too18:54
bart416Eagle is good for anything?18:54
bart416If it is, I haven't found a use for it yet.18:54
bart416Except if you consider annoying hobbyists and EE students good that is.18:55
bart416It's potentially the most destructive piece of software ever written.18:55
bart416It has caused more people to quit hobby electronics than any other piece of software ever before it18:55
bart416It's worthless for BGAs18:55
bart416Not to mention it has loads of obscure bugs (causing files to become corrupt and useless as well).18:56
bart416And possibly the worst interface one could imagine for CAD software18:56
horizontallyi was recommended it and i didn't like it the first time i saw it18:56
horizontallyi liked orcad for schematic capture and simulation, but that's the only one that seemed to work fluidly18:57
bart416I swear the 1980s CAD software will outdo it in user friendlyness18:57
bart416Well, altium and ads are far more complicated18:57
bart416Cause they're loaded with features that are too complicated to describe in a single sentence :S18:57
bart416Like ADS can actually succesfully model noise and crosstalk on your PCB due to components (based on their internal structure, pcb material, etc...)18:58
bart416If you then make the actual board and hook it up to test equipment you'll get pretty much the same characteristics + the distinctive 50/60 Hz obviously18:59
bart416It'll also calculate the characteristics of any antenna you throw at it given you model it correctly.18:59
horizontallywow18:59
bart416Altium shines in embedded systems design19:00
bart416And as such has a lot of features related to that, but many of them are hidden as well19:00
bart416Both of those are not intended for unexperienced users19:01
bart416They have too much features and options19:01
bart416And their simulation engines are only as good as the people using them19:01
bart416Cause they need to be configured correctly19:01
bart416cadence's pspice on the other hand is far more forgiving19:02
bart416But slower and harder to link to other things19:02
bart416Like getting pspice and cray lc to work together is near impossible19:02
horizontally /lastlog -file bart416scomparisonofeCAD.log19:25
bart416just use allegro :P19:27
bart416It's generally the best tool, and it doesn't sound like a geekish program so people won't laugh at you if they see a link to it on your desktop19:28
azonenbergI most definitely do not like eagle, it is indeed worthless19:45
azonenbergI just cant afford the good ones19:45
azonenbergi'm currently using expresspcb and foolingg around with geda and kicad19:45
azonenbergbut not ready to commit to either yet19:46
horizontallywhat do you think about torrents?19:47
horizontallybecause... i have the full orcad 16.319:47
azonenbergI need to keep my setup legal, i'm on enough watchlists already19:48
azonenberglast thing i need is to get slapped with a copyright complaint on top :p19:49
horizontallywatchlists, why?19:49
azonenbergI'm half joking, but i know some interesting people and do some interesting things19:49
horizontallyalso, as long as you're at a university, you could probably get a student license19:49
azonenbergIf i'm not on at least a couple, [A-Z]{3} aren't doing their job well :p19:50
horizontallylol understatement of the year19:50
horizontallythe KKK is after you?19:50
azonenbergI was thinking more along the lines of 3-letter agencies19:50
horizontallysure19:51
horizontallyNRA19:51
azonenbergMore like NSA/FBI/CIA :p19:51
horizontallyABC, CBS, NBC, TBS19:51
horizontallyoh19:51
horizontallyKFC19:51
horizontallyhahaha19:51
azonenbergIf KFC is doing background checks on me, I wonder what my future employment prospects are :p19:52
azonenbergBut seriously, the question is not if some of these places have files on me19:54
azonenbergit's how big those files are19:54
azonenbergand, more to the point, how much incorrect info is in them19:54
bart416heh19:59
bart416talking to me isn't going to improve how big those files are azonenberg :P20:00
azonenbergbart416: I know :p20:00
azonenbergBut if they knew the whole truth i'd probably be getting job offers20:00
bart416lol20:00
azonenbergHalf-truths, on the other hand, might lead to knocks on the door at 0400 :p20:00
bart416but yeah, can't you use a license from your university's EE department?20:00
azonenbergI havent looked into it because i havent needed to make a really complex board yet20:00
azonenbergThat will change in the near future20:01
bart416We can checkout orcad licenses at home from the university's licensing server20:01
bart416You just need to keep a vpn client up20:01
Action: azonenberg runs his own VPN to campus20:01
azonenbergAnd right now my really hardcore high-speed design is done on FPGAs20:01
azonenbergAnd i'm using a premade dev board20:01
azonenbergOnce i get my SoC to the point that i'm ready to design a custom board for it, things will start getting fun20:01
azonenbergBecause that will involve doing routing of a 16x16 full-grid BGA20:02
azonenbergseveral-hundred-Mbps LVDS pairs20:03
azonenbergand more20:03
bart416orcad is about the only program that can handle that...20:03
azonenbergI know :p20:03
bart416altium can as well heh20:03
azonenbergYep20:04
azonenbergThose are the ones i was looking at20:04
azonenbergAnd i'm talking about being able to route a 16 bit wide DDR2 SDRAM bus20:04
azonenbergincluding all of the differential pairs going there etc20:04
azonenbergthen LVDS out to a high speed IO connector20:04
bart416yeah, you need orcad + ads :P20:04
azonenberglol20:06
azonenbergMaybe this explains why more hobbyists dont do really cool stuff like this?20:06
bart416yeah, it's hard20:07
bart416I mean, we can afford it cause we have access to university/college labs20:07
bart416But for a regular hobbyist it's near impossible to gather the resources to do any cool project20:08
bart416Same if you buy parts20:09
bart416You forget one part20:09
bart416And you have to either pay insane shipping or wait weeks to get it20:10
bart416don't know about you but I just throw it in the lab's orders then, they get delivered there daily so you have it the next day20:10
azonenbergI actually buy parts20:12
azonenbergBut i have a... large... parts order ready to go out soon20:12
azonenberglike on the order of $500 from digikey20:13
azonenbergeverything from LEDs and desoldering braid to FPGAs and flash20:13
bart416order it through your university azonenberg20:13
bart416You get discount + fast shipping20:13
azonenbergbart416: Not worth the trouble20:13
bart416heh?20:13
bart416farnell actually advises students to do that here :S20:14
azonenbergits harder here20:14
azonenbergthey had trouble with some embezzling a few years ago and have tightened up the processes significantly20:14
azonenbergclubs cant even make purchases directly anymore20:14
azonenbergthey have to jump through so many hoops20:14
bart416We have to put the money up for it first20:15
bart416They don't care what we use it for20:15
azonenbergYeah, they dont like doing that here20:15
azonenbergthey just say, buy it yourself20:15
horizontallydamn20:16
horizontallyazonenberg is so many kinds of awesome20:16
azonenberglol20:17
azonenbergI suppose it's progress if you think that20:17
azonenbergNow i just have to convince my doctoral committee, future employer, and future gf :p20:17
azonenbergwhoever those last two turn out to be20:17
horizontallyhow do you not have a girlfriend dude?20:26
azonenberghorizontally: Right now? Lack of time20:29
azonenbergI'd get pulled into a threesome with her and my work20:29
azonenbergAnd the work would win out20:29
azonenbergOr, worse yet, it wouldnt20:29
azonenbergand i'd lose my edge20:29
horizontallywell when is it going to end dude?20:29
azonenbergI need to live my work to stay sharp20:29
horizontallylike in a few years you're going to start looking like shit no matter what you look like now20:30
horizontallyhair will start falling out. the gut will poke out20:30
azonenberglol20:30
horizontallyyou can always study your ass off once you're butt ugly20:30
azonenbergI have a PhD to finish first :p20:30
horizontallydude... you may end up regretting that20:31
horizontallyi know successful PhDs who have girlfriends20:31
horizontallyit takes a lot of work to find what you want20:31
horizontallyyou don't want to lose your edge there either20:31
azonenbergi'm not saying i wont find someone eventually20:31
azonenbergSimply that its not worth the time just yet20:31
horizontallydo you know what you're looking for?20:31
azonenbergI havent had the time to think about it whatsoever20:32
horizontallyoh wow20:32
azonenbergheck, i'm weeks behind on exam grading despite working every waking hour20:32
horizontallywhat the hell20:32
azonenbergi have a grant proposal thats 3 pages long and needs to be 1520:32
azonenbergIt's all TDMA20:32
horizontallyi don't know dude. no one else really cares about your life but you. your PIs are going to encourage you to work harder20:33
azonenbergnow that assignmments arent piling up anymore the FIFOs are emptying20:33
horizontallyjesus, i hope you don't talk like this in real life20:33
azonenbergOnce the semester ends i'll have a whole month+ of winter break to relax20:33
azonenbergMeaning work on my CPU design, teach myself VHDL20:33
horizontallyyou know what's terrifying? i know friends getting married... at like 22/2320:33
azonenbergand do some QFN stuff20:33
azonenbergYeah, i know some of those types20:33
horizontallythe availability pool starts dropping off20:34
horizontallymost of them right now are "can't have sex before marriage" christians20:34
horizontallyi'm super picky and i'm getting bored of my gf of 2 years. i want to move on while i can, but a part of me is worried that it'll be hard to find another one20:34
azonenbergLol... Dont forget the psychopaths20:35
azonenbergEspecially at engineering schools there are the cute ones who excel at manipulating guys and bending them to their will20:35
azonenberg"help me with this", "I dont understand that", "go buy me this"20:35
azonenbergi got on the radar of one of them freshman year and probably wont escape until she graduates this year20:36
horizontallywow dude, grow a pair20:36
azonenbergI never said i gave in ;p20:36
horizontallyin fact, no don't. you probably have a laboratory setup for that20:36
azonenbergJust that she tries20:36
azonenbergShe has a bf but still hits on other guys all the time if she thinks she'll be able to convince them to do something of use20:37
horizontallyi hate those20:37
azonenbergI've been largely immune except for once, when the problem she posed was interesting enough from a technical perspective i forgot who was asking it20:37
azonenbergBig mistake :p20:37
horizontallyhahaha20:37
azonenbergNerd snpied20:37
horizontallymine is loyal and sweet, but i'm getting too used to her. it's boring now.20:37
azonenbergThis one is not my gf and never will be, i have no interest in her and she knows it20:38
horizontallycool, you do have self-worth20:38
azonenbergBut she still tries because i have resources that are of use to her ;p20:38
azonenbergNot that she's interested in me, she just wants to pick my brain20:38
azonenbergExcept for the time she jumped on me in the cafeteria line and gave me a bear hug last week (while standing next to a guy that she was, i think, dating at the time) i havent seen her in months20:39
azonenbergWhich worries me20:39
azonenbergIt means she's plotting something :p20:39
azonenbergOh well, only one more semester of that lol20:39
azonenbergAnd lol, of course if have self worth20:40
horizontallyi don't know dude. i know smart dudes who feel totally worthless near hot chicks20:41
azonenbergWorthless? No. Uninterested? Sometimes20:41
azonenbergI dont like boring people20:42
horizontallyyeah i get that20:42
horizontallyyou know though, models are some of the most interesting chicks i've met20:42
horizontallythey know they're hot20:42
horizontallyso they focus on something interesting20:42
horizontallylike being smart or having traveled the world or whatever20:42
azonenbergShow me even *one* who does VLSI design in her spare time20:43
azonenbergGood luck20:43
horizontallyyeah maybe not, but i can show you a few who picked up at least 5 different languages fluently20:43
bart416I know one that does asic design for a living20:43
bart416does that count?20:43
azonenbergbart416: We're discussing people whos primary line of work is modeling20:44
bart416ah ok :P20:44
azonenbergAnd my claim is, none of them have any really good tech skills or they'd be doing that instead20:44
bart416well, she isn't bad looking though :P20:44
horizontallyso you want someone who is like a clone of you but with boobs?20:44
azonenberghorizontally: Clone? No. But a cute lab assistant would be nice :p20:44
azonenbergAt least to the point that i could bounce algorithm design ideas off20:45
horizontallywhat if she was into a different field of science than you?20:45
horizontallyi know a lot of hot bio girls20:46
azonenbergI do too, and depending on interests that might work out... the big thing right now is lack of time20:46
horizontallythey're socially well adjusted and know stuff. they've got that confident, calm tone of speaking that can be very attractive20:46
azonenbergWhich is why i havent really looked much :p20:46
horizontallywell that'll always be the limiting factor20:46
bart416make time :P20:47
horizontallyespecially as you get into your mid to late 20s, then the pool of available women drops a lot more20:47
azonenbergbart416: I was considering it after the craziness of exams is over20:47
azonenbergBut of course i fully expect to get caught up in multi-10-Gbps switch fabric design then :p20:48
azonenbergBecause i enjoy it too much to stop20:48
horizontallycan you imagine yourself getting bored with this all down the line?20:48
horizontallylike 5 years from now?20:48
horizontallytech will always be cool no doubt20:48
azonenbergAfter almost 12 years? Fat chance20:48
azonenbergI've changed focuses slowly, following a roughly sinusoidal pattern from pure hardware to pure software20:49
azonenbergand now right on the edge20:49
azonenbergBut that's just my constant desire for new knowledge, never being content to stand still20:49
horizontallysure that's understandable20:49
bart416horizontally, azonenberg is like an over dampened oscillator :p20:49
azonenbergbart416: More like an LFO20:50
azonenbergWith a period of ~10 years20:50
azonenbergand an amplitude of... how do you measure difference between fields of engineering? :p20:50
horizontallyi actually do know one model who accidentally made cadmium selenide photovoltaic nanowires in her spare time20:50
bart416also according to adobe reader 125 is smaller than 101%20:50
azonenberghorizontally: accidentally?20:50
horizontallyof course, she was in her boyfriend's lab20:50
horizontallybut he didn't give her any instructions20:50
horizontallyshe just kind of played with stuff20:50
azonenbergmeaning, pouring random stuff together not knowing what it was?20:50
azonenbergOr was that the goal of the experiment20:50
horizontallythat was somewhat the goal of the experiment20:51
azonenbergWell my first requirement would definitely be somebody who is at least somewhat comfortable in a lab20:51
azonenbergI have a live-in lab and if you dont like it then better leave now ;p20:52
azonenbergThat alone eliminates a lot of people20:52
horizontallyshe wants to go into international relations as a lawyer. she had thought out why she wanted to do what she wanted to do20:52
azonenbergSo how does nanotech come out?20:52
horizontallyshe's in a cool program with penn state where she can basically travel the world while taking classes20:52
horizontallyher boyfriend20:52
horizontallyhe did engineering physics20:53
azonenbergOh, so its not at all her field20:53
horizontallywell she was a model for 5 years20:53
horizontallybut like would you prefer brains over beauty? like an ugly smart chick?20:53
horizontallyyou'd be cool with that?20:54
azonenbergSome of both but more on the brains20:54
azonenbergFinding both is not easy :p20:54
horizontallyyeah i agree20:54
azonenbergAnd the conclusion is that its not worth the time20:54
azonenbergas of last time i re-evaluated priorities20:54
horizontallybut think of the opportunity costs20:54
horizontallyevery day that goes by, the worth does go up20:54
horizontallyuntil it precipitously drops and you're stuck with widows and DONOTWANTs20:55
azonenbergMaybe I'll end up just being married to my work20:55
azonenbergIt's worked for 21 years20:55
horizontallythe past isn't a good indicator of the next 10 years at least20:56
azonenbergI dont care about 10 years, i care about 2-520:57
azonenbergAnd especially the 6 month time frame, getting my phd work off the ground20:57
horizontallyhmm, so you'll be (23 or 24) or (26 or 27) when you're out?20:57
azonenbergProbably more othe latter20:57
azonenbergBut i'm mostly talking about the near field20:57
azonenbergFor example i'll have more time to think about other things when not TAing20:58
horizontallyi do agree that girls do change between 21 and 2520:58
azonenbergWhich is contingent on me getting external funding20:58
horizontallyi can see that20:58
azonenbergI have my priorities, and while a mate is on there somewhere20:59
horizontallybut especially near the end of your PhD most of the good ones are in serious, committed long term relationships20:59
azonenbergIt's far from top right now20:59
horizontallyyou also want to have experience though20:59
horizontallyotherwise, choosing a new one will be difficult20:59
azonenbergYes, but its not something i can afford to spend time on now20:59
horizontallyand maybe by then you might find one you like, but your inexperience might turn her off20:59
azonenbergSure, domestication of H. Sapiens is a useful skill to have21:00
horizontallymaybe you can if you choose to spend some time on it21:00
horizontallylike you spend time on irc21:00
horizontallyyou could not do that21:00
azonenberglol21:00
horizontallyyou're not 100% efficient21:00
azonenbergNo, but pretty close21:00
horizontallyi don't know why i'm telling you this. i stand to lose a lot from you not being around21:00
azonenbergI like to think of my brain as a barrel processor21:00
azonenbergFine grained multithreading with no overhead21:00
horizontallyso don't date any one ever please. just stay here and help people :)21:00
azonenbergIts how i maintain productivity despite a short attention span21:01
azonenbergcontext switching constantly21:01
horizontallyi think you could definitely get a girl who likes sort of dorky nerdy sorts21:01
azonenbergOh, they do exist21:01
azonenbergThe last one i met was cute and interesting and i was actually starting to like her21:01
horizontallybut where would you find them? where would you look?21:01
azonenbergThen she dropped out and moved halfway across the county :p21:02
azonenbergOn zero notice21:02
horizontallythat was a sign!21:02
horizontallylike when they invite you to their place21:02
azonenbergTo do more background checking in the future? :P21:02
azonenbergSo I would have noticed she was getting ready to run away from her rather unpleasant parents?21:02
horizontallyoh damn21:03
horizontallyso you fall for the crazy ones21:03
azonenbergShe was actually somewhat normal by comparison21:03
horizontallyto whom? don't say you21:03
azonenbergWell ok, normal compared to me21:03
horizontallyhahahaha21:03
azonenbergI suppose your average college girl doesnt ask you over her dorm to chat about black holes and quantum physics21:04
azonenbergBut thats exactly what happened the last time i saw her :p21:04
horizontallyoh that one21:04
horizontallyyeah i remember you telling me about her21:04
azonenbergYeah21:04
azonenbergBut average people are boring21:04
horizontallyshe was hoping that you'd talk about superposition21:05
azonenbergAnd the more ``interesting" ones are hard to find21:05
azonenbergAnd lol21:05
horizontallybut instead you kept talking about ground state to higher energy state transitions21:05
horizontallyjesus i'm turning into you21:05
azonenbergThere were some NSFW jokes about MOSFETs i think21:05
azonenbergBut that was it21:05
azonenbergand lol, actually21:06
horizontallywhat about if you found one that was really curious, but just didn't know stuff21:06
horizontallylike had potential?21:06
azonenbergwe were talking about how to model the campus shuttle buses21:06
azonenbergas parallel buses21:06
azonenbergand discussing whether the school should hire differential drivers to reduce problem21:06
azonenbergBut that they were probably too cheap to pay someone who has the skills to drive two vehicles making out-of-phase turns simultaneously21:06
azonenbergwhenever one lane changes left the other goes right etc :p21:07
azonenbergAnd it'd be decided on a case-by-case basis21:07
azonenbergbut finding someone who's interested in hardcore technical stuff who also likes to drop it all and go climb mountains on the weekend is not easy21:08
Action: azonenberg remembers the gear locker is only open for another two hours and he needs to sign out an ice axe21:08
berndjdo you want to match the trace length for campus shuttles too?21:46
--- Sat Dec 3 201100:00

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