| azonenberg | Thetawaves: I'm at 20um now and have a roadmap down to 1um | 10:31 |
|---|---|---|
| azonenberg | using current equipment | 10:31 |
| azonenberg | 20um at 10x reduction => 5um at 40x => 2um at 100x immersion => 1um with double patterning | 10:31 |
| azonenberg | just need to work out some focuser drift and maybe buy better quality objective lenses | 10:32 |
| Thetawaves | is it some sort of photoresist process? | 10:32 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 10:32 |
| azonenberg | Spin coat in photoresist and expose a mask (laser printer transparency, 600DPI) through a microscope objective to reduce feature size | 10:33 |
| azonenberg | then develop and etch | 10:33 |
| Thetawaves | what is limiting you to 20um? | 10:34 |
| azonenberg | My stage isn't quite perpendicular to the optical axis | 10:34 |
| azonenberg | depth of field at 40x reduction isn't enough to uniformly expose the whole die | 10:34 |
| azonenberg | i need to spend some time calibrating it | 10:34 |
| azonenberg | once i get that done, i need to work on drift | 10:34 |
| Thetawaves | what does your setup look like? | 10:35 |
| azonenberg | the stage slowly moves down | 10:35 |
| azonenberg | not by much but a shift of 100nm is all it takes at these scales | 10:35 |
| azonenberg | it'll blur an immersion exposure beyond recognition | 10:35 |
| Thetawaves | it would be cool to get some professional optics | 10:35 |
| azonenberg | I'm using a $800 metallurgical microscope | 10:36 |
| azonenberg | put the mask over the camera port and backlight wit ha halogen lamp | 10:36 |
| Thetawaves | http://www.edmundoptics.com/ | 10:39 |
| Thetawaves | took me a while to find that supplier | 10:39 |
| Thetawaves | i don't know about cost, but it's got all the professional shit you'd need | 10:40 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 10:40 |
| azonenberg | i have one of their catalogs hanging out here | 10:40 |
| azonenberg | great stuff, if i made 10x what i do now :p | 10:40 |
| Thetawaves | too expensive? | 10:41 |
| azonenberg | Depends on what you want | 10:41 |
| azonenberg | in general, the really cool toys | 10:41 |
| azonenberg | like 385nm laser systems | 10:41 |
| azonenberg | are pricey :p | 10:41 |
| Thetawaves | i was thinking that maybe it would be more convenient to align | 10:41 |
| Thetawaves | so you could do it better/faster | 10:41 |
| azonenberg | I do intend to ebay some stages/focusers at some point | 10:41 |
| Thetawaves | 600dpi is what um? | 10:45 |
| azonenberg | It's about 42um on the mask | 10:45 |
| azonenberg | divided by the objective you use | 10:45 |
| azonenberg | i usually use 10x which gives me roughly 5um lambda | 10:46 |
| Thetawaves | per dot? | 10:46 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 10:46 |
| azonenberg | at a 5 pixel design rule that's nominally a 20um design rule | 10:46 |
| azonenberg | its actually 21.something, i'd have to go run the numbers | 10:46 |
| azonenberg | But i refer to it as my 20um process for simplicity's sake | 10:48 |
| Thetawaves | do you have an indicator? | 10:49 |
| azonenberg | indicator? | 10:49 |
| azonenberg | what do you mean | 10:49 |
| azonenberg | i have a calibrated camera on my microscope i can use for measuring distances | 10:49 |
| Thetawaves | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial_indicator | 10:49 |
| azonenberg | No | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | i do have a digital micrometer | 10:50 |
| Thetawaves | use that to align your shits | 10:50 |
| Thetawaves | that's not good enough | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | graduated in microns and accurate to +/- 2 or 3 | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | lol | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | this is a nice mitutoyo | 10:50 |
| Thetawaves | dial indicators swing about an axis to allow you to check flatness | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | best measuring instrument i ever used | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | and i align optically | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | remember my exposuire system doubles as a microscope ;) | 10:50 |
| azonenberg | So i just turn the lamp down low and align the projected image to the features on the wafer | 10:51 |
| azonenberg | then turn it up high to expose | 10:51 |
| Thetawaves | i think it would be a valuable tool | 10:51 |
| azonenberg | might be, but i dont have one yet | 10:51 |
| Action: azonenberg looks at clock | 10:51 | |
| azonenberg | almost 0600 here lol | 10:51 |
| azonenberg | And the rest of this stack of exams isn't getting graded while i'm as sleepy as i am now :p | 10:51 |
| Thetawaves | hah | 10:52 |
| Thetawaves | good night | 10:52 |
| azonenberg | Good night? It's six in the morning :p | 10:52 |
| Action: azonenberg AFKs | 10:52 | |
| Action: bart416 drags azonenberg back in here | 11:06 | |
| bart416 | LTSpice is remarkably fast at simulating amplifiers :S | 14:32 |
| bart416 | 6ms/s... | 14:33 |
| bart416 | These guys designed their PCB with the assumption that there are x% of cold joints I'd say :S | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | bart416: what?? | 18:48 |
| azonenberg | redundant links or something? | 18:48 |
| bart416 | yes | 18:50 |
| bart416 | all the diodes in the protection circuits are in parallel | 18:50 |
| bart416 | completely useless | 18:50 |
| bart416 | except if you're expecting cold joints | 18:50 |
| azonenberg | lol | 18:51 |
| bart416 | I traced everything and worked it out somewhat | 18:51 |
| azonenberg | What about for increased current? | 18:51 |
| bart416 | And the only reason is cold joints lol | 18:51 |
| bart416 | diodes don't work like that though | 18:51 |
| bart416 | They'd pop one by one | 18:51 |
| azonenberg | You mean they dont have the exact same Vfwd? | 18:51 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 18:51 |
| azonenberg | I've seen that happen | 18:51 |
| azonenberg | But maybe the designer doesnt know that :p | 18:51 |
| bart416 | On IC level you can put them in parallel actually | 18:51 |
| berndj | i've seen people claim that diodes do share current nicely | 18:53 |
| berndj | not that i'm convinced... | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | Maybe at IC level | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | because then you can guarantee consistency to a higher level | 18:53 |
| berndj | yeah, much closer thermal coupling | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | just like parallel transistors are baiscally just a longer channel | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | Well its also consistency in doping etc | 18:53 |
| berndj | *wider, but yeah | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | but not from die to die | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | whcih might have been even on different wafers | 18:53 |
| berndj | i always thought it's primarily about the loose thermal coupling that BJTs and diodes don't share current nicely - because of the negative tempco of Vf | 18:54 |
| azonenberg | I think its mostly related to Vf being different at time=0 | 18:55 |
| azonenberg | one of them heats up a little more | 18:55 |
| azonenberg | then you get runaway | 18:55 |
| berndj | otoh, when i measure Vf of random 1N4007s with my multimeter, invariably they're the same to within a few mV | 18:56 |
| berndj | there's probably a critical current above which they stop sharing nicely | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | a few mV though? | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | Thats enouhg | 18:57 |
| bart416 | Current takes the path of least resistance as well | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | you heat up by a tenth of a degree | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | Vf changes | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | it heats up even faster | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | you get a positive feedback loop in which this die dissipates more and more power as a function of the total | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | before long, bang | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | i've seen it happen with paralleled LEDs | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | all in parallel with the same series resistor | 18:58 |
| azonenberg | one blew, others were fine | 18:58 |
| berndj | it does, but it also dissipates faster - below a certain current the dissipation actually dominates (IIRC & YMMV - i did this sort of calc for hotspot along the length of a copper wire once, critical current density was maybe a few dozen A/mm^2) | 18:58 |
| bart416 | What actually does work to some extent is putting a fast shottky diode in parallel with a regular PN diode | 18:58 |
| bart416 | in certain situations that is | 18:58 |
| bart416 | you have the fast response from the shottky | 18:58 |
| bart416 | and the current capability of the PN diode | 18:58 |
| berndj | how does the current capability of the PN diode even come into play though? | 18:59 |
| bart416 | it depends on the circuit berndj | 18:59 |
| berndj | i thought the schottky would destroy itself protecting the PN diode | 18:59 |
| bart416 | the thing is, the shottky (aaaaargh c key doesn't work if I type fast and I have to hit it with a sledge hammer) has a higher Vf than the PN in those particular situations | 19:00 |
| bart416 | Resulting in the PN diode taking all the current through it | 19:00 |
| berndj | oh - you mean Vf rises faster than a regular diode's does? | 19:01 |
| bart416 | A schottky is simply faster at switching | 19:01 |
| berndj | but also lower Vf | 19:01 |
| bart416 | As I said, specific situations | 19:02 |
| bart416 | I've seen it done in some high power pulsed laser circuits | 19:02 |
| berndj | hah. throw out the rulebook then | 19:02 |
| bart416 | not really | 19:02 |
| bart416 | it still sticks to the rules | 19:02 |
| bart416 | the schottky is activated faster (the voltage is high enough to activate it anyway), but the PN requires a lower voltage in that case resulting in the PN taking the punishment off the schottky within a few microseconds | 19:04 |
| berndj | regular schottkys or those fancy new SiC ones? | 19:04 |
| bart416 | Dunno | 19:04 |
| bart416 | Sorry, but I don't study the naming of components in detail | 19:04 |
| berndj | i mean the new schottkys where the one half is SiC (wider bandgap) and not plain silicon | 19:04 |
| berndj | let's you have fast switching at 1000V+ | 19:05 |
| bart416 | Heh, playing with high current GaAs diodes is also fun | 19:06 |
| berndj | ugh. i now realize what "looked wrong" in that "let's" | 19:07 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, I think I actually found PCB design software for simple things that doesn't make me want to kill myself :| | 20:42 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Simple things? Yeah | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | It's when you start doing >=4 layer designs with fat parallel buses and differential pairs | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | that it gets tricky :p | 20:43 |
| bart416 | Then you just start using OrCAD, ADS or Altium... | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | unfortunately i cant afford any of them lol | 20:44 |
| bart416 | Those are the only three that seem to be capable of handling more than 2 layers well | 20:44 |
| azonenberg | expresspcb *can* as long as the two inner layers are just power/ground planes | 20:44 |
| bart416 | actually, design spark seems to be capable of more than 10 layers lol | 20:45 |
| bart416 | (and not just power or ground planes either it seems :S ) | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | But express can't do differential pairs | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | or autoroute | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | I'm looking at kicad and geda | 20:45 |
| azonenberg | havnet made a choice yet | 20:46 |
| bart416 | oh but design spark can auto route | 20:46 |
| bart416 | Hence, it's awesome | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | i want to do a small 4-layer design in both | 20:46 |
| bart416 | And it also seems to be capable of handling eagle libraries at first glance | 20:46 |
| bart416 | try design spark, seriously | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | winblows? | 20:46 |
| azonenberg | if so thats a game-over | 20:47 |
| bart416 | yeah, it's windows | 20:47 |
| azonenberg | yeah, i am not going to be happy with that :p | 20:47 |
| azonenberg | express at least sort of runs in wine | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | but none of the nice ones do | 20:48 |
| bart416 | Try to run it in wine | 20:48 |
| bart416 | + also seems to have some links to spice at first sight | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | and can it export gerber? | 20:48 |
| bart416 | looks like it | 20:48 |
| azonenberg | very nice, i'll take a look | 20:49 |
| azonenberg | a FOSS tool would be best of course | 20:49 |
| bart416 | Well, I'm not really sure how RS managed to do this :S | 20:49 |
| bart416 | This is a direct shot at eagle lol | 20:50 |
| bart416 | And at first sight it's head on | 20:50 |
| azonenberg | very nice | 20:50 |
| azonenberg | limited? | 20:50 |
| bart416 | Doesn't look like it | 20:50 |
| bart416 | well, unless you mean 14 layers is a limit | 20:50 |
| azonenberg | I mean artificially limtid | 20:50 |
| azonenberg | and is it free or commercial? | 20:50 |
| bart416 | free, you do need to register but that's it | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | so whats the catch? | 20:51 |
| bart416 | and it can "only" do boards up to 1m squared lol | 20:51 |
| bart416 | I'm trying to find the catch :S | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | expresspcb limits you to their proprietary CAD format | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | So you can only use their fab service | 20:52 |
| bart416 | well, there's gerber export... | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | but its freeware and has no *artificial* limitations | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | though its design sucks and you can't do >2 signal layers plus optionally 2 power planes | 20:52 |
| bart416 | At first sight it doesn't look limited at all :S | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | so designspark is free and unlimited | 20:52 |
| bart416 | Looks like it | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | But then why arent they releasing source? | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | do they plan to go commercial eventually? | 20:52 |
| azonenberg | and this is like a public beta? | 20:52 |
| bart416 | Doesn't look like it | 20:53 |
| bart416 | http://www.designspark.com/theme/designspark-pcb | 20:53 |
| Action: bart416 is stunned as well :| | 20:54 | |
| azonenberg | i dont get the catch | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | if they wanted it to be free they'd probably release source | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | otherwise they'd try to sell it | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | or put ads in | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | or lock it to their fab | 20:54 |
| azonenberg | or what | 20:54 |
| bart416 | well, it does have features like "export partslist to RS Online" | 20:55 |
| bart416 | So it does seem like a bit of a marketing ploy | 20:55 |
| azonenberg | So they make it easy to use their service | 20:55 |
| bart416 | Yes | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | But they don't lock you in at all? | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | if the program isnt time limited, and you can export to gerber, you can always leave | 20:56 |
| bart416 | I haven't spotted neither of such limitations :S | 20:56 |
| azonenberg | weird | 20:56 |
| bart416 | + some degree of eagle compatibility | 20:56 |
| bart416 | Win-Win | 20:57 |
| bart416 | + Nice standard library at first sight | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | it just seems too good to be true | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | but yet they arent releasing source | 20:57 |
| bart416 | why would they, it's a marketing ploy in the long run | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | Marketing ploy how though | 20:59 |
| azonenberg | are they just relying on people using their fab service because its easy? | 20:59 |
| bart416 | I guess | 20:59 |
| bart416 | It shows an ad at the start | 21:00 |
| bart416 | for their pcb service | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | Oh, ok - its adware | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | Easy to nop out | 21:01 |
| bart416 | Actually can't find a direct export to their pcb service easily | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | Well, if all i have to do is add a single well placed 0x90 | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | i dont see the harm in using it :p | 21:02 |
| bart416 | I'm really going to try this out | 21:04 |
| azonenberg | Let me know how it goes | 21:06 |
| azonenberg | and if you patch out the ads, let me know the byte offset that has to get nopped out | 21:06 |
| bart416 | it takes 2 seconds to click away the ad | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | Doesnt matter | 21:07 |
| bart416 | It's just a small window at the start | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | I show no mercy to ads | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | if i decide i am not buying from you, that'sit | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | and showing me the ad again wont make me more likely to | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | it just annoys me, and you won't like me when i'm annoyed :p | 21:08 |
| bart416 | Considering the profit margin on PCB manufacturing I do see how they can offer this free heh | 21:08 |
| bart416 | If 50 people use it to order a 4 layer bord they paid their programmers in india probably | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | I guess | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | In any case, i like to say there are two kinds of electronic ads | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | Those i never see | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | And those i see once | 21:08 |
| bart416 | lol | 21:10 |
| bart416 | I'm so not going to bother disassembling a free program :| | 21:10 |
| azonenberg | if they offered a pay version without ads i might consider it | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | might even buy a board from their service to justify it | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | But i will not stand for ads | 21:12 |
| bart416 | lol, go to their site and demand that you can pay $1 to remove the ad :') | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | do they offer the option? | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | becuase if not i will do what i takes :p | 21:14 |
| bart416 | they don't | 21:14 |
| bart416 | "But they're open to suggestions" | 21:14 |
| bart416 | xD | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | my suggestion, i buy a board from them at some point | 21:15 |
| azonenberg | and do what it takes to live without ads | 21:15 |
| azonenberg | That's if i like the program when i test it out | 21:15 |
| bart416 | It's 24h service btw their pcb thing :') | 21:22 |
| azonenberg | Very nice, what's pricing look like? | 21:23 |
| azonenberg | for say a 4 layer, two or three inches square | 21:23 |
| bart416 | size in mm? | 21:25 |
| azonenberg | say 50-75 square | 21:25 |
| bart416 | http://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/quote-and-order-pcb/ | 21:25 |
| azonenberg | Oh, they arent USA based? | 21:26 |
| bart416 | no | 21:26 |
| azonenberg | That woudl cost more | 21:26 |
| bart416 | 75 gbp for a 250 mm² board... | 21:27 |
| bart416 | ( layer) | 21:27 |
| bart416 | *4 | 21:27 |
| azonenberg | But what does this have to do with designspark? | 21:27 |
| bart416 | dunno | 21:27 |
| bart416 | Must be connected to RSOnline | 21:28 |
| azonenberg | Hmm, i see | 21:28 |
| bart416 | http://www.extremetech.com/computing/105931-full-disk-encryption-is-too-good-says-us-intelligence-agency | 22:05 |
| bart416 | lol | 22:05 |
| bart416 | Challenge accepted | 22:05 |
| Action: bart416 encrypts all his HDs in Rijndael 256 bit | 22:06 | |
| azonenberg | " First, evidence-gathering goons can turn off a computer (for transportation) without realizing its encrypted," | 22:08 |
| azonenberg | That's just idiotic | 22:08 |
| azonenberg | you're supposed to do a RAM dump before shutting it off | 22:08 |
| bart416 | That's still sort of useless if the hardware is locking it down | 22:09 |
| azonenberg | If you get the keys out of ram, you win | 22:09 |
| azonenberg | And there are ways around such things if you have physical access, i wont go into too much detail | 22:09 |
| bart416 | Who says they're stored in the ram ;) | 22:09 |
| azonenberg | i'm talking stuff like truecrypt etc | 22:10 |
| azonenberg | There are of course other options | 22:10 |
| bart416 | Oh, I'm talking about full blown disk encryption | 22:10 |
| azonenberg | truecrypt FDE i mean | 22:10 |
| azonenberg | still stores keys in ram | 22:10 |
| bart416 | Done at hardware level | 22:10 |
| bart416 | Good luck bypassing that | 22:10 |
| azonenberg | Ok, that | 22:10 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 22:10 |
| bart416 | You need an electron microscope to get the key, and that's if you're lucky | 22:10 |
| azonenberg | Actually, you probably just need to pay off the guy at Samsung | 22:11 |
| azonenberg | who put the backdoor in it | 22:11 |
| azonenberg | and convince him to give you the key :p | 22:11 |
| bart416 | The thing is, there is no backdoor | 22:11 |
| azonenberg | That the public knows about | 22:11 |
| azonenberg | Thats what i like abou GPG etc, source is public | 22:12 |
| bart416 | These things are designed in such a fashion that they're hard to probe even with an electron microscope | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | so i can verify its not tampered with | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | You're telling *me* about tamper resistant hardwarer | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | i happen to have photos of decapped smartcards on my wall :p | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | I'm just saying, you can't rule out the possibility | 22:12 |
| bart416 | Yes, believe it or not, they make these things tamper resistant :| | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | that there is a second copy of the key encrypted with a different password | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | FDE encryps using a session key that's stored on disk encrypted with, guess what' the user's password | 22:13 |
| azonenberg | but what about the second copy of the key? | 22:13 |
| azonenberg | I guarantee you that if [A-Z]{3} considers these things a threat | 22:13 |
| azonenberg | they will, and probably have, backdoored all commercially available models | 22:13 |
| azonenberg | If they havent, the chinese gov't or whatever probably did it to keep tabs on their own citizens | 22:13 |
| bart416 | Unlike what you think, governments actually don't like doing that | 22:14 |
| azonenberg | Like, no | 22:14 |
| azonenberg | But all it takes is one person | 22:14 |
| azonenberg | could be the mob for all i know | 22:14 |
| bart416 | And that person still won't do that | 22:14 |
| bart416 | For they use the same hardware | 22:14 |
| azonenberg | But if nobody else knows its there? | 22:14 |
| bart416 | You don't introduce a backdoor into something you use | 22:14 |
| bart416 | You still don't introduce it | 22:15 |
| azonenberg | Sure you do, if its asymmetric crypto | 22:15 |
| azonenberg | and you have the private key | 22:15 |
| azonenberg | you pay off the guy and give him your pubkey | 22:15 |
| bart416 | You still don't do it | 22:15 |
| azonenberg | It's risky and i think its unlikely | 22:15 |
| azonenberg | my point is that you can never be sure | 22:15 |
| azonenberg | And depending on how big a target you are sometimes paranoia is justified | 22:16 |
| azonenberg | just look at google in china | 22:16 |
| bart416 | Well, if you are going to be paranoid like that, you might want to stop using a processor made by intel or amd | 22:16 |
| azonenberg | there is a good reason darpa is exploring how to detect fab-level tampering | 22:16 |
| azonenberg | DoD is worried about it too | 22:16 |
| bart416 | Yeah, cause it's their job to be paranoid like that | 22:16 |
| bart416 | Keep in mind americans are paranoid about just about anything | 22:17 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, but there are folks out there who give us a reason to :p | 22:18 |
| bart416 | That's what you think | 22:18 |
| bart416 | The fact is that most people don't give a damn if you leave them alone | 22:18 |
| bart416 | And all that drama through new services, not helping, not true either | 22:18 |
| azonenberg | You mean the farce that is airline security? | 22:18 |
| bart416 | no, in general | 22:19 |
| bart416 | "oimg ... is going to kill all of us" | 22:19 |
| bart416 | where ... is the latest hype in something | 22:19 |
| bart416 | usually something related to global warming on a quiet day | 22:19 |
| bart416 | then it's terrorists | 22:19 |
| bart416 | then it's bankers | 22:19 |
| azonenberg | I just subscribe to the opinion that sometimes a little paranoia can be justified | 22:19 |
| bart416 | then it's protesters | 22:19 |
| bart416 | then it's immigrants | 22:19 |
| azonenberg | But not taken to extremes | 22:20 |
| azonenberg | At the same time, it helps to know more about the threats | 22:20 |
| azonenberg | And it's pretty well known that the PRC wants data | 22:20 |
| azonenberg | on us companies | 22:21 |
| azonenberg | and will do just about anything to get it | 22:21 |
| azonenberg | So i would say that it's a very real threat | 22:21 |
| bart416 | And do you really think they have trouble getting it being that all your production has been outsourced to china... | 22:22 |
| azonenberg | Not at all lol | 22:22 |
| azonenberg | Which is a problem :p | 22:22 |
| azonenberg | Thats a reason some high security designs are using FPGAs | 22:22 |
| azonenberg | because its very hard to backdoor them when you dont know what's going to run on them | 22:22 |
| bart416 | it's a problem when you make it one | 22:23 |
| azonenberg | especially given randomize place-and-route etc | 22:23 |
| azonenberg | what do you mean? They want to sell counterfeit copies of stuff | 22:23 |
| azonenberg | and get data to keep track on their citizens | 22:23 |
| bart416 | You know, the paranoia is actually more likely to cause problems than the actual "problem"? | 22:29 |
| bart416 | The entire intelligence community should gtfo and get a life | 22:29 |
| bart416 | And so should all people for that matter who think they have some sort of rightous cause | 22:30 |
| bart416 | Cause they don't | 22:30 |
| soul-d | meh just make a panic button and a termite charge | 22:46 |
| soul-d | try to read data back from that | 22:46 |
| soul-d | or jsut wget the whole internet as noise im scared of the stuff i have on my pc | 22:48 |
| soul-d | but i don't know if i want to get caught week ago i found a book on chemical warfare :') for example | 22:48 |
| azonenberg | My school library has one of those | 22:49 |
| azonenberg | And a termite charge? Hmm | 22:49 |
| azonenberg | So when it explodes all the wood within 50 feet gets eaten? | 22:49 |
| azonenberg | ;) | 22:49 |
| soul-d | just enough to melt your ip :) | 22:50 |
| azonenberg | no, i mean you said termite, not thermite :p | 22:50 |
| azonenberg | as in the bugs | 22:50 |
| soul-d | heh maybe if you have lots of paperwork | 22:50 |
| soul-d | downloaded a giant library once so just search pc for books like on mems 5+ books or so :D but thats all nm talk :( | 22:54 |
| soul-d | maybe small talk was better word play | 23:01 |
| --- Sun Nov 20 2011 | 00:00 | |
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