#homecmos IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-10-26

soul-dhttp://www.megauk.com/pcb_chemicals.php   was the resist i know of  available in eu   although that website listed on homecmos does have digy-key listed as distributor  , and few others that have a webpage18:30
soul-dalthough i woulnd mind to volunteer for the uk type  resist  (cheap applicator version ) since ive some pieces of uncoated copper for wich i can use it anyhow18:32
soul-dalthough the one you found already is a known to work on other materials18:46
azonenbergIf you want to test it and post results, go for it20:28
azonenbergFinding vendors in various countries that will sell small volumes (suitable for hobbyists) is a major area we need to work on20:28
azonenbergmost of my vendors only sell to the US and maybe canada20:28
soul-dyeah saw some distributors though but still  then it it's a chemical  wich usaly is heavily restricted to20:49
soul-dbut that ill volunteer for that   wafers shouln'd be  a problem once i know little bit  more (been reading some books  ;)  ) woulnd even mind calling around company's  never hurts to ask20:56
soul-di mean i have asml  10 miles from me ;)20:57
soul-dthough don't have the cash for their products sadly20:57
azonenbergWhat? :P20:57
azonenbergjust go take out a home equity loan for $250K20:57
azonenbergmaybe you'll be able to afford 1/50 of a nice stepper ;)20:57
soul-din this crisis ? banks don;t give anything20:58
soul-dthey want though20:58
azonenbergNot that you'd have anwhere to fit a 22nm stepper20:58
azonenbergi hear they're big20:58
soul-dif you can afford it  you probably can store it somewhere or hire a place20:58
azonenbergIf you can afford it you're probably a fortune 500 company or the CEO of one20:59
azonenbergi hear the new ones go for on the order of 5E7 USD21:00
soul-dthought they wen't for  like 5x mln21:00
azonenbergNo, those are the old ones for 350nm ish21:00
azonenbergi guarantee a 22nm immersion stepper will run you tens of million21:00
soul-dand i was thinking i almost saved enough :(21:02
azonenbergBut I think that a 1um ish resolution stepper should be buildable for a few thousand USD21:02
azonenbergand ~10um for even less21:02
soul-dive mostly been reading on the whole processes so far terminology   and on how feasable it is for people in europe21:07
soul-dhttp://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page  came across that  pretty interesting21:14
soul-dhow did you envision the vacuum chamber / evaporator for home use  ?21:16
azonenbergBuy a bell jar and cheap used diffusion pump o nebay21:16
azonenbergget a variac21:17
azonenbergrun wiring from there to a pair of heavy duty alligator clips21:17
azonenbergclamp down the filament21:17
azonenbergone of the things i;m doing now is gaining experience with doing evaporation21:17
azonenbergin the "real" tool21:17
azonenbergonce i've learned how it works (and how it doesnt, more importantly) i'll be able to do a better job of building one21:18
soul-dfillament = tungesten wire with src deposited   or made out   the source material to be evaporated  ?21:19
azonenbergno, just a tungsten wire coiled into a basket21:19
azonenbergyou put pellets of the material inside it21:19
soul-dlike small tungesten crucible21:19
soul-dout of wire21:20
azonenbergPretty much, except it's open21:20
azonenbergwhen the metal melts it sticks to the tungsten by surface tension21:20
azonenbergthen evaporates right off it21:20
soul-dwe talking about small volume to right milligrams ?21:21
soul-dmy scale only goes 0.0521:21
azonenbergTypical load is a few tens to a few hundred mg21:21
azonenbergmy last Cr run was two or three ~30mg chips of Cr21:21
soul-ddropped the 0.005 one    tried to clean desk  in one sweep :D21:21
azonenbergGo buy another one - when you're working at these scales you need accuracy more than volume capacity21:22
soul-dbut this one more usable in other area's   cause it went up to 400gr21:22
soul-dand thats nice with .00  resolution21:22
soul-dyeah i will when time comes to evaporate but  that's still a bit  away21:27
azonenbergLol, yes21:36
azonenbergeven i am not quite ready to try doing that at home (though its definitely possible)21:37
soul-di still have to clean my chemical stuff21:37
soul-di should write stuff like your logs21:37
soul-dsince i have 3 bottles of hso4  on table  unlabled   only visable  cause i made cu2 so4 sometime  ( i had to wiki that again )21:39
soul-dbut i stopped in the middle of it since  chemistry is fun  but you do need a neat and clean place for it plus good storage facility21:41
azonenbergYes, definitely21:44
azonenbergi put neatness on the top of my priority list21:45
soul-dhehe i have plenty of stuff i probably don't  want to  in my house21:45
azonenberg*remembers he has clean glassware on the drying rack that needs to get put away so he can wash the next batch*21:45
soul-dlike borax    kmno4   sulfer  most echants for pcb most pure chemicals you can get at you local hardware store  etc :)21:46
soul-drealy need to get rid of hoarding habbits21:49
soul-dgot a nice set of lab ware to it did learn me allot but  yeah neatness & methodologically  in chemistry is a must21:51
azonenbergLol hoarding habits21:51
azonenbergI have two workbenches now that are full of in-progress projects that have to get cleaned off21:52
soul-dplus  id be worried  cause of having all the suit on facial procteion and even gas mask  donno what neighbours might think21:52
azonenbergYeah, it can go over wrong if you arent careful21:52
azonenbergIn my case I never wear respirators, i use engineering controls whenever possible21:53
azonenbergLike open windows and fans21:53
azonenbergAnd i work with small volumes of stuff (single ml etc)21:53
azonenbergWhcih reminds me i need to finish building my local exhaust hood21:53
soul-dhave a single walled shed with asbestos top  it's ventilated  but  still21:53
azonenbergi have a 6" duct fan21:53
azonenbergand am in the process of building a hood to go over my hot plate and spin coater21:53
soul-dyeah better be safe here since i din;t know any chemistry before that so i first bought protection :)21:54
azonenbergto vent anything out the window21:54
soul-dfume hood is alwasy good idea21:54
azonenbergYeah, i dont know too much chem as well so i try to stick to established reactants and reasonably well studied chemicals21:54
azonenbergI live on a second floor so i can vent out safely well above street level21:54
azonenbergAnd none of the solvents i'm using are regulated for private use21:55
azonenbergcommon stuff like acetone etc21:55
soul-di do calculate  allot  and  want to  be "certain " or know what posibility's21:55
azonenbergMy rule is 100CFM face velocity21:55
azonenbergthats the standard for fume hoods21:55
soul-di made kno3 out nh4no421:55
soul-dreleases terrible amounts of amonia21:55
azonenbergoh fun21:55
soul-doutdoorse ofcourse21:55
azonenbergI have nowhere to work outdoors21:55
azonenbergI actually have to go order all of the PVC for the hood lol21:56
azonenbergi'm using solvent resistant PVC for the body and acrylic for the sash21:56
azonenberg2x2 feet, either 1 or 2 feet deep (have to work that out)21:56
azonenberghot air welded21:57
azonenbergbottom 1 ft of sash will always be open (tentatively), top 1 ft will hinge21:57
soul-dyeah saw a topic on a nice build forgot where it was22:00
azonenbergI just have to decide if i want depth 1ft or 2ft22:00
azonenbergleaning toward 222:00
azonenbergSo the whole hood will be a 2ft cube22:00
azonenbergeasily big enough for my scale of work22:00
azonenbergand a 250+ CFM duct fan to exhasut22:01
soul-doh yeah  think 2 feet is nicer if you can mis the space22:02
azonenbergits on top of a 2x4 foot table22:02
azonenbergso yes22:02
azonenbergI have quite a few workbenches here, the lab is gradually growing lol22:02
azonenbergSo let's see... http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=enwbqs22:03
azonenbergOne each for left, right, bottom, top, back - so that's five22:03
azonenbergFour feet of 1/4" x 1" PVC bar to form a lip at the bottom for containing spills22:04
azonenbergOne of these http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=enwczj to form the sash22:05
azonenbergI already have the fan and ducting22:06
azonenbergand the student machine shop has welding rod for joining them together22:07
azonenbergi think i'm set22:07
soul-d:) don't think links work correctly for that site might be firefox22:07
azonenbergprobably all of the scripting etc22:08
azonenberg5x 8747K148 Gray PVC (Type I) Sheet 1/4" Thick, 24" X 24"22:08
azonenberg1x 8560K355 Clear Cast Acrylic Sheet .25" Thick, 12" X 24"22:08
azonenbergthen a pair of door hinges and some nuts and bolts to hold it on22:08
soul-doh it doesn't like22:09
soul-dnow it wasnt me to lgin to ciontue browsingh22:09
soul-dyeah probably blocked me22:10
soul-dwhat is your light source btw you do your mask lighting at home ? i think i saw you mention halogen ?22:12
azonenbergI have at one occasion or another used flashlights, halogen bulbs, mercury vapor fluorescent tubes, and 385nm LEDs22:17
azonenbergright now my lamp of choice is a halogen microscope lamp22:18
soul-dk cause best diffused ?22:23
azonenbergYou dont want it diffuse, you want a parallel beam22:59
bart416The ideal light source is a laser for this23:00
bart416But the issue is getting a wide enough beam23:00
azonenbergbart416: Yeah - ideally i'd have a 365nm excimer laser with a condenser and expander23:01
azonenbergto get a 20mm top-hat profile disk23:01
bart416Some laser assemblies from industrial laser cutters can actually go to that I think23:01
bart416But not in the right frequency range23:02
azonenbergbart416: at 365nm? I doubt it23:02
azonenbergmaybe 1080 or something23:02
bart416I meant the beam width :P23:02
azonenbergOh, yeah23:02
bart416Starting from a small focused beam23:02
bart416But it's questionable if the setup will be as effective in the 350nm range23:02
azonenbergand 350 is short23:03
azonenbergit'd be 365 to 40523:03
azonenbergthats the peak sensitivity range23:03
bart416Just saying range :|23:03
azonenbergWell, the beauty of duplicating existing work23:04
azonenbergIs that you know it's doable23:04
bart416The materials used in those laser cutting assemblies is chosen in such a way to only work for certain frequency ranges in a lot of cases :(23:04
azonenbergOh, you wouldnt use the same exact assemblies23:05
azonenbergJust a similar lense arrangement23:05
bart416The beauty of the laser cutting systems is the variable focus though23:05
azonenbergfocus? The goal is a pretty parallel beam23:06
azonenbergyou dont want a point23:06
azonenbergonce its adjusted it shouldnt need to be changed23:06
bart416The thing is, the variable focus is what will allow you to do this well ;)23:06
bart416You can use the same assembly to varry the beam intensity23:07
bart416allowing you finer control over exposure23:07
bart416And if necessary direct write23:07
soul-dsomething tells me it has a price tag to go with it23:11
azonenbergwoo, i may be able to evaporate sooner rather than later... a guy i was working with got a small bell jar and mechanical pump that he says he'll let me play with after the experiments are done23:13
azonenbergI just have to get myself a diffusion pump to go to deeper vac23:14
azonenbergAnd said bell jar is on a baseplate with a couple of high current feedthroughs ;)23:14
soul-dbell jar  lab glassware btw ?like from sodiumborsilisomthing ?23:15
azonenbergI think its borosilicate glass but not sure23:15
azonenbergits rated for high vacuum, thats all i know23:15
azonenbergHe's not going very deep so they only have a roughing pump, but nothing would stop me from hooking up a high-vac pump later on23:16
soul-dyeah we have 1$ like  shops selling somthing in the shape  but  don't think that would hold out ;)23:16
azonenbergno, this is the real deal23:16
soul-dyeah i have a healty aversion to be near stuff that might ex or implode23:20
azonenbergThats why you put a cage over it23:20
bart416soul-d, a belljar imploding isn't nearly as dangerous as getting HF over your hands23:27
azonenbergStrong HF, yes23:27
azonenbergshrapnel vs 2% is debatable23:27
bart416imploding belljars don't create that much shrapnell23:28
bart416don't ask how I know :P23:28
soul-dalways expect the unexpected:P23:29
azonenbergsoul-d: And if you aren't wearing goggles in your lab, you should be :p23:29
soul-doh i ualy wear gogles even undewr full face screen :D23:29
soul-dcause i somtimes want to put it up23:29
azonenbergSame here23:30
soul-dmmm looking on glasware page  http://www.labstuff.nl/contents/nl/d15.html23:31
soul-dbut hard to see how and what  there is a realy cheap one :P23:32
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