| soul-d | http://www.megauk.com/pcb_chemicals.php was the resist i know of available in eu although that website listed on homecmos does have digy-key listed as distributor , and few others that have a webpage | 18:30 |
|---|---|---|
| soul-d | although i woulnd mind to volunteer for the uk type resist (cheap applicator version ) since ive some pieces of uncoated copper for wich i can use it anyhow | 18:32 |
| soul-d | although the one you found already is a known to work on other materials | 18:46 |
| azonenberg | If you want to test it and post results, go for it | 20:28 |
| azonenberg | Finding vendors in various countries that will sell small volumes (suitable for hobbyists) is a major area we need to work on | 20:28 |
| azonenberg | most of my vendors only sell to the US and maybe canada | 20:28 |
| soul-d | yeah saw some distributors though but still then it it's a chemical wich usaly is heavily restricted to | 20:49 |
| soul-d | but that ill volunteer for that wafers shouln'd be a problem once i know little bit more (been reading some books ;) ) woulnd even mind calling around company's never hurts to ask | 20:56 |
| soul-d | i mean i have asml 10 miles from me ;) | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 20:57 |
| soul-d | though don't have the cash for their products sadly | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | What? :P | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | just go take out a home equity loan for $250K | 20:57 |
| azonenberg | maybe you'll be able to afford 1/50 of a nice stepper ;) | 20:57 |
| soul-d | in this crisis ? banks don;t give anything | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 20:58 |
| soul-d | they want though | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | Not that you'd have anwhere to fit a 22nm stepper | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | i hear they're big | 20:58 |
| soul-d | if you can afford it you probably can store it somewhere or hire a place | 20:58 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 20:59 |
| azonenberg | If you can afford it you're probably a fortune 500 company or the CEO of one | 20:59 |
| azonenberg | i hear the new ones go for on the order of 5E7 USD | 21:00 |
| soul-d | thought they wen't for like 5x mln | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | No, those are the old ones for 350nm ish | 21:00 |
| azonenberg | i guarantee a 22nm immersion stepper will run you tens of million | 21:00 |
| soul-d | and i was thinking i almost saved enough :( | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | But I think that a 1um ish resolution stepper should be buildable for a few thousand USD | 21:02 |
| azonenberg | and ~10um for even less | 21:02 |
| soul-d | ive mostly been reading on the whole processes so far terminology and on how feasable it is for people in europe | 21:07 |
| soul-d | http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page came across that pretty interesting | 21:14 |
| soul-d | how did you envision the vacuum chamber / evaporator for home use ? | 21:16 |
| azonenberg | Buy a bell jar and cheap used diffusion pump o nebay | 21:16 |
| azonenberg | get a variac | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | run wiring from there to a pair of heavy duty alligator clips | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | clamp down the filament | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | one of the things i;m doing now is gaining experience with doing evaporation | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | in the "real" tool | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | once i've learned how it works (and how it doesnt, more importantly) i'll be able to do a better job of building one | 21:18 |
| soul-d | fillament = tungesten wire with src deposited or made out the source material to be evaporated ? | 21:19 |
| azonenberg | no, just a tungsten wire coiled into a basket | 21:19 |
| azonenberg | you put pellets of the material inside it | 21:19 |
| soul-d | like small tungesten crucible | 21:19 |
| soul-d | out of wire | 21:20 |
| azonenberg | Pretty much, except it's open | 21:20 |
| azonenberg | when the metal melts it sticks to the tungsten by surface tension | 21:20 |
| azonenberg | then evaporates right off it | 21:20 |
| soul-d | we talking about small volume to right milligrams ? | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 21:21 |
| soul-d | my scale only goes 0.05 | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | Typical load is a few tens to a few hundred mg | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | my last Cr run was two or three ~30mg chips of Cr | 21:21 |
| soul-d | dropped the 0.005 one tried to clean desk in one sweep :D | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | Go buy another one - when you're working at these scales you need accuracy more than volume capacity | 21:22 |
| soul-d | but this one more usable in other area's cause it went up to 400gr | 21:22 |
| soul-d | and thats nice with .00 resolution | 21:22 |
| soul-d | yeah i will when time comes to evaporate but that's still a bit away | 21:27 |
| azonenberg | Lol, yes | 21:36 |
| azonenberg | even i am not quite ready to try doing that at home (though its definitely possible) | 21:37 |
| soul-d | i still have to clean my chemical stuff | 21:37 |
| soul-d | i should write stuff like your logs | 21:37 |
| soul-d | since i have 3 bottles of hso4 on table unlabled only visable cause i made cu2 so4 sometime ( i had to wiki that again ) | 21:39 |
| soul-d | but i stopped in the middle of it since chemistry is fun but you do need a neat and clean place for it plus good storage facility | 21:41 |
| azonenberg | Yes, definitely | 21:44 |
| azonenberg | i put neatness on the top of my priority list | 21:45 |
| soul-d | hehe i have plenty of stuff i probably don't want to in my house | 21:45 |
| azonenberg | *remembers he has clean glassware on the drying rack that needs to get put away so he can wash the next batch* | 21:45 |
| soul-d | like borax kmno4 sulfer most echants for pcb most pure chemicals you can get at you local hardware store etc :) | 21:46 |
| soul-d | realy need to get rid of hoarding habbits | 21:49 |
| soul-d | got a nice set of lab ware to it did learn me allot but yeah neatness & methodologically in chemistry is a must | 21:51 |
| azonenberg | Lol hoarding habits | 21:51 |
| azonenberg | I have two workbenches now that are full of in-progress projects that have to get cleaned off | 21:52 |
| soul-d | plus id be worried cause of having all the suit on facial procteion and even gas mask donno what neighbours might think | 21:52 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, it can go over wrong if you arent careful | 21:52 |
| azonenberg | In my case I never wear respirators, i use engineering controls whenever possible | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | Like open windows and fans | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | And i work with small volumes of stuff (single ml etc) | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | Whcih reminds me i need to finish building my local exhaust hood | 21:53 |
| soul-d | have a single walled shed with asbestos top it's ventilated but still | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | i have a 6" duct fan | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | and am in the process of building a hood to go over my hot plate and spin coater | 21:53 |
| soul-d | yeah better be safe here since i din;t know any chemistry before that so i first bought protection :) | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | to vent anything out the window | 21:54 |
| soul-d | fume hood is alwasy good idea | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, i dont know too much chem as well so i try to stick to established reactants and reasonably well studied chemicals | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | I live on a second floor so i can vent out safely well above street level | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | And none of the solvents i'm using are regulated for private use | 21:55 |
| azonenberg | common stuff like acetone etc | 21:55 |
| soul-d | i do calculate allot and want to be "certain " or know what posibility's | 21:55 |
| azonenberg | My rule is 100CFM face velocity | 21:55 |
| azonenberg | thats the standard for fume hoods | 21:55 |
| soul-d | i made kno3 out nh4no4 | 21:55 |
| soul-d | releases terrible amounts of amonia | 21:55 |
| azonenberg | oh fun | 21:55 |
| soul-d | outdoorse ofcourse | 21:55 |
| azonenberg | I have nowhere to work outdoors | 21:55 |
| azonenberg | I actually have to go order all of the PVC for the hood lol | 21:56 |
| azonenberg | i'm using solvent resistant PVC for the body and acrylic for the sash | 21:56 |
| azonenberg | 2x2 feet, either 1 or 2 feet deep (have to work that out) | 21:56 |
| azonenberg | hot air welded | 21:57 |
| azonenberg | bottom 1 ft of sash will always be open (tentatively), top 1 ft will hinge | 21:57 |
| soul-d | yeah saw a topic on a nice build forgot where it was | 22:00 |
| azonenberg | I just have to decide if i want depth 1ft or 2ft | 22:00 |
| azonenberg | leaning toward 2 | 22:00 |
| azonenberg | So the whole hood will be a 2ft cube | 22:00 |
| azonenberg | easily big enough for my scale of work | 22:00 |
| azonenberg | and a 250+ CFM duct fan to exhasut | 22:01 |
| soul-d | oh yeah think 2 feet is nicer if you can mis the space | 22:02 |
| azonenberg | its on top of a 2x4 foot table | 22:02 |
| azonenberg | so yes | 22:02 |
| azonenberg | I have quite a few workbenches here, the lab is gradually growing lol | 22:02 |
| azonenberg | So let's see... http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=enwbqs | 22:03 |
| azonenberg | One each for left, right, bottom, top, back - so that's five | 22:03 |
| azonenberg | Four feet of 1/4" x 1" PVC bar to form a lip at the bottom for containing spills | 22:04 |
| azonenberg | One of these http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=enwczj to form the sash | 22:05 |
| azonenberg | I already have the fan and ducting | 22:06 |
| azonenberg | and the student machine shop has welding rod for joining them together | 22:07 |
| azonenberg | i think i'm set | 22:07 |
| soul-d | :) don't think links work correctly for that site might be firefox | 22:07 |
| azonenberg | probably all of the scripting etc | 22:08 |
| azonenberg | 5x 8747K148 Gray PVC (Type I) Sheet 1/4" Thick, 24" X 24" | 22:08 |
| azonenberg | 1x 8560K355 Clear Cast Acrylic Sheet .25" Thick, 12" X 24" | 22:08 |
| azonenberg | then a pair of door hinges and some nuts and bolts to hold it on | 22:08 |
| soul-d | oh it doesn't like | 22:09 |
| soul-d | now it wasnt me to lgin to ciontue browsingh | 22:09 |
| azonenberg | lol | 22:09 |
| soul-d | yeah probably blocked me | 22:10 |
| soul-d | what is your light source btw you do your mask lighting at home ? i think i saw you mention halogen ? | 22:12 |
| azonenberg | I have at one occasion or another used flashlights, halogen bulbs, mercury vapor fluorescent tubes, and 385nm LEDs | 22:17 |
| azonenberg | right now my lamp of choice is a halogen microscope lamp | 22:18 |
| soul-d | k cause best diffused ? | 22:23 |
| azonenberg | No | 22:58 |
| azonenberg | You dont want it diffuse, you want a parallel beam | 22:59 |
| bart416 | The ideal light source is a laser for this | 23:00 |
| bart416 | But the issue is getting a wide enough beam | 23:00 |
| azonenberg | bart416: Yeah - ideally i'd have a 365nm excimer laser with a condenser and expander | 23:01 |
| azonenberg | to get a 20mm top-hat profile disk | 23:01 |
| bart416 | Some laser assemblies from industrial laser cutters can actually go to that I think | 23:01 |
| bart416 | But not in the right frequency range | 23:02 |
| azonenberg | bart416: at 365nm? I doubt it | 23:02 |
| azonenberg | maybe 1080 or something | 23:02 |
| bart416 | I meant the beam width :P | 23:02 |
| azonenberg | Oh, yeah | 23:02 |
| azonenberg | lol | 23:02 |
| bart416 | Starting from a small focused beam | 23:02 |
| bart416 | But it's questionable if the setup will be as effective in the 350nm range | 23:02 |
| azonenberg | Why? | 23:03 |
| azonenberg | and 350 is short | 23:03 |
| azonenberg | it'd be 365 to 405 | 23:03 |
| azonenberg | thats the peak sensitivity range | 23:03 |
| bart416 | Just saying range :| | 23:03 |
| azonenberg | Well, the beauty of duplicating existing work | 23:04 |
| azonenberg | Is that you know it's doable | 23:04 |
| bart416 | The materials used in those laser cutting assemblies is chosen in such a way to only work for certain frequency ranges in a lot of cases :( | 23:04 |
| azonenberg | Oh, you wouldnt use the same exact assemblies | 23:05 |
| azonenberg | Just a similar lense arrangement | 23:05 |
| bart416 | The beauty of the laser cutting systems is the variable focus though | 23:05 |
| azonenberg | focus? The goal is a pretty parallel beam | 23:06 |
| azonenberg | you dont want a point | 23:06 |
| azonenberg | once its adjusted it shouldnt need to be changed | 23:06 |
| bart416 | The thing is, the variable focus is what will allow you to do this well ;) | 23:06 |
| bart416 | You can use the same assembly to varry the beam intensity | 23:07 |
| bart416 | allowing you finer control over exposure | 23:07 |
| bart416 | And if necessary direct write | 23:07 |
| soul-d | something tells me it has a price tag to go with it | 23:11 |
| azonenberg | woo, i may be able to evaporate sooner rather than later... a guy i was working with got a small bell jar and mechanical pump that he says he'll let me play with after the experiments are done | 23:13 |
| azonenberg | I just have to get myself a diffusion pump to go to deeper vac | 23:14 |
| azonenberg | And said bell jar is on a baseplate with a couple of high current feedthroughs ;) | 23:14 |
| soul-d | bell jar lab glassware btw ?like from sodiumborsilisomthing ? | 23:15 |
| azonenberg | I think its borosilicate glass but not sure | 23:15 |
| azonenberg | its rated for high vacuum, thats all i know | 23:15 |
| azonenberg | He's not going very deep so they only have a roughing pump, but nothing would stop me from hooking up a high-vac pump later on | 23:16 |
| soul-d | yeah we have 1$ like shops selling somthing in the shape but don't think that would hold out ;) | 23:16 |
| azonenberg | no, this is the real deal | 23:16 |
| soul-d | yeah i have a healty aversion to be near stuff that might ex or implode | 23:20 |
| azonenberg | Thats why you put a cage over it | 23:20 |
| bart416 | soul-d, a belljar imploding isn't nearly as dangerous as getting HF over your hands | 23:27 |
| azonenberg | Strong HF, yes | 23:27 |
| azonenberg | shrapnel vs 2% is debatable | 23:27 |
| bart416 | imploding belljars don't create that much shrapnell | 23:28 |
| bart416 | don't ask how I know :P | 23:28 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 23:29 |
| soul-d | always expect the unexpected:P | 23:29 |
| azonenberg | soul-d: And if you aren't wearing goggles in your lab, you should be :p | 23:29 |
| soul-d | oh i ualy wear gogles even undewr full face screen :D | 23:29 |
| soul-d | cause i somtimes want to put it up | 23:29 |
| azonenberg | Same here | 23:30 |
| soul-d | mmm looking on glasware page http://www.labstuff.nl/contents/nl/d15.html | 23:31 |
| soul-d | but hard to see how and what there is a realy cheap one :P | 23:32 |
| --- Thu Oct 27 2011 | 00:00 | |
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