| Action: azonenberg waits eagerly for new batch of wafers to arrive tuesday | 00:11 | |
| mrdata | mm... wafers | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| B0101 | Hi azonenberg | 03:33 |
| azonenberg | hi | 03:36 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: ever programmed anything? | 03:53 |
| B0101 | other than your FPGA's i mean | 03:53 |
| azonenberg | I have half a million lines of C/C++/x86 asm/MIPS asm/PIC asm/verilog sitting around my laptop's hard drive | 03:54 |
| azonenberg | all of which i wrote | 03:54 |
| azonenberg | so, i guess the answer is yes :p | 03:54 |
| azonenberg | My degree is in computer science | 03:54 |
| azonenberg | EE and nanotech are just hobbies to me | 03:54 |
| B0101 | I am pretty sure that you have a backup | 03:56 |
| azonenberg | Of the code? You've gotta be kidding me lol | 03:58 |
| azonenberg | My laptop's hdd is a cache | 03:58 |
| azonenberg | not storage | 03:58 |
| azonenberg | everything important is SVN checkouts from a repository stored on RAID1 | 03:59 |
| azonenberg | the repos are backed up nightly offsite to another raid array | 03:59 |
| azonenberg | My rule is, if i cannot lose one of my installations (home, office, parents house, etc) entirely | 03:59 |
| azonenberg | and one hard drive from every surviving computer | 03:59 |
| azonenberg | Simultaneously | 03:59 |
| azonenberg | that i dont have enoguh redundancy | 03:59 |
| azonenberg | IOW, if i would lose *any* critical data from such a disaster, i'm doing it wrong | 04:00 |
| B0101 | hmm, i keep my code backed up on offsite servers | 04:06 |
| B0101 | each running RAID 5 | 04:10 |
| flyback- | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/unix_time_zone_database_destroyed/ <--- here's another company for anonymous to destroy | 04:11 |
| B0101 | hmm | 04:18 |
| flyback- | I was talking about the company that sued the unix maintainer guy, people | 04:27 |
| flyback- | sheesh | 04:28 |
| Action: flyback- sleeps | 04:31 | |
| azonenberg | lol | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | B0101: so why were you asking again? | 04:35 |
| B0101 | huh? | 04:35 |
| B0101 | I only asked once | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | no, i mean | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | why were yo uasking | 04:36 |
| B0101 | oh, just for the fun of it | 04:36 |
| B0101 | brb | 04:36 |
| B0101 | back | 04:55 |
| azonenberg | ah | 04:55 |
| B0101 | bart416: thanks for giving me the link to the quantum computing videos | 07:23 |
| bart416 | np | 07:25 |
| bart416 | Though as azonenberg pointed out you probably already knew all of that | 07:25 |
| B0101 | btw, do you know about Einsteins theory of relativity? He might have been wrong | 07:28 |
| B0101 | CERN has done an experiment on their collider which shows neutrinos can go faster than speed of light | 07:29 |
| B0101 | and if so, Einstein was wrong when he said nothing could go faster than the speed of light | 07:30 |
| bart416 | and do you know that experiment might have forgotten to take into account relativity :P | 07:38 |
| bart416 | http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111005/full/news.2011.575.html | 07:39 |
| bart416 | Paper at http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1109/1109.6160v2.pdf | 07:40 |
| B0101 | hmm | 07:54 |
| B0101 | bart416: interesting paper | 08:31 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, ? | 10:50 |
| bart416 | http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,789&Prod=NEXYS2 or http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,897&Prod=NEXYS3 | 10:56 |
| azonenberg | bart416: i have the atlys | 13:22 |
| azonenberg | the next model up | 13:22 |
| bart416 | Yeah, but budget is 150 euro | 13:22 |
| bart416 | Cause that's what the guy who ruined my old fpga board is paying me | 13:23 |
| bart416 | lol | 13:23 |
| azonenberg | Definitely go for the spartan-6 | 13:23 |
| azonenberg | and lol, how did he do that | 13:23 |
| bart416 | Good question | 13:23 |
| bart416 | He borrowed it for a few weeks and got a text earlier today that he'll pay me 150 euro for it cause he ruined it lol | 13:23 |
| bart416 | won't the spartan 3e allow bigger logic circuits though? | 13:24 |
| bart416 | That particular 6 has less equivalent logic cells :( | 13:24 |
| azonenberg | hmm, the lx16 vs the 3e 1200 *looks up* | 13:25 |
| bart416 | I'm a bit worried about it | 13:25 |
| bart416 | Cause I'm looking at building another oscilloscope | 13:25 |
| bart416 | This time with 4 8 bit 100 MSa/s FPGAs to achieve 300-400 MSa/s | 13:26 |
| azonenberg | well, the lx16 is def better than the 500k cell s3e | 13:27 |
| azonenberg | Looks like the lx16 is, gate wise, about equivalent to ~900k cells of 3e | 13:28 |
| azonenberg | Except the lx16 has more block ram than even the 1200 3e and probably more mults too | 13:28 |
| azonenberg | so it basically becomes a tradeoff, would you rather have a few more slow cells in the 3e, or more block ram, more mults, and faster cells in the 6 | 13:28 |
| azonenberg | i'd go for the 6 unless i was area limited | 13:28 |
| azonenberg | s3 is really pretty much obsolete | 13:29 |
| B0101 | hi azonenberg | 13:33 |
| azonenberg | hi | 13:34 |
| B0101 | well, what do I look for when I choose a FPGA board? | 13:34 |
| azonenberg | Depends on what you're trying to do and how much budget you have :p | 13:35 |
| B0101 | Well, I am want to build a CPU on a FPGA (I am looking for fast speed and more memory for cache) | 13:37 |
| azonenberg | A cpu | 13:38 |
| azonenberg | that's a pretty broad term | 13:38 |
| azonenberg | i've seen 4-bit toy cpus in 800 gate CPLDs | 13:38 |
| azonenberg | and full 32 bit designs on big fpgas | 13:38 |
| azonenberg | all the way up to full ARM cores | 13:38 |
| azonenberg | so what kind of cpu do you want? Not necessarily architecture, more along the lines of speed/capabilities | 13:39 |
| azonenberg | i designed an 8-bit 3-stage pipelined core that ran at 85 MHz on a 50k gate spartan-3a | 13:39 |
| azonenberg | with room to spare | 13:40 |
| B0101 | as I said, I want a CPU with a fast speed, and more cache memory | 13:40 |
| azonenberg | Define fast | 13:40 |
| azonenberg | 50 mhz? 500? | 13:40 |
| B0101 | around 700MHZ to 1 GHZ | 13:40 |
| azonenberg | Good luck lol | 13:40 |
| azonenberg | FPGAs are meant for parallelism, not speed | 13:40 |
| azonenberg | you'd need one of the ridiculously expensive ones for that | 13:41 |
| azonenberg | like, five figurep rice tag | 13:41 |
| azonenberg | if its even possible | 13:41 |
| azonenberg | Typical clock rates for entry-level FPGA designs are O(100 MHz) | 13:43 |
| bart416 | The trick with a FPGA is that you don't have to work in a synchronous fashion | 13:48 |
| B0101 | ok | 13:53 |
| bart416 | But essentially you're limited by your amount of LUTs | 13:54 |
| azonenberg | hi ashaw | 14:10 |
| ashaw | hey azonenberg | 14:11 |
| ashaw | so you are doing electron beam lithography | 14:11 |
| ashaw | ? | 14:11 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: not e-beam | 14:11 |
| azonenberg | Optical projection | 14:11 |
| ashaw | how are you making the mask? | 14:12 |
| azonenberg | Laser direct-write with a bluray diode is on the longer term todo list | 14:12 |
| azonenberg | Right now I print my masks out at 200um design rules (10x actual size) on laser printer transparency | 14:12 |
| azonenberg | then reduce optically with a microscope objective and project onto the die | 14:12 |
| azonenberg | align | 14:12 |
| azonenberg | and expose | 14:12 |
| azonenberg | You mean, design? | 14:13 |
| ashaw | no | 14:13 |
| ashaw | process | 14:13 |
| azonenberg | I make the GDS in glade or klayout, then export to dxf and print appropriately scaled | 14:13 |
| ashaw | cool | 14:13 |
| azonenberg | Right now my lambda is 4.233... microns | 14:13 |
| azonenberg | which is 1/600 inch (resolution of my printer) divided down further by my 10x objective | 14:14 |
| ashaw | yay | 14:14 |
| azonenberg | design rule is five lambda min feature size | 14:14 |
| ashaw | I have been looking at making a LDI machine | 14:14 |
| ashaw | with 1um resolution | 14:14 |
| azonenberg | i'm working on shrinking down 4x further, to 1.058um lambda and the same 5 lambda design rule, using a 40x reduction | 14:15 |
| azonenberg | been having yield issues | 14:15 |
| azonenberg | LDI = ? | 14:15 |
| azonenberg | laser direct write? | 14:15 |
| ashaw | Laser direct imaging | 14:15 |
| azonenberg | Ah | 14:15 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, thats on my todo list as well, if you'd like to collaborate let me know | 14:15 |
| azonenberg | my idea was to use it for contact masks | 14:15 |
| ashaw | cool | 14:15 |
| ashaw | My idea is to directly print onto the wafer | 14:16 |
| azonenberg | I considered that | 14:16 |
| azonenberg | the problem is alignment if you are doing >1 mask level | 14:16 |
| ashaw | but? | 14:16 |
| azonenberg | and direct writ eis slow | 14:16 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:16 |
| azonenberg | so i figure i'll do what the real fabs do except laser instead of ebeam for making the mask | 14:16 |
| azonenberg | The other thing i need to do is build myself a stepper/scanner | 14:16 |
| ashaw | there is a way around doing i pixel at a time | 14:16 |
| azonenberg | put servos on the stage so i can move the field around the die/wafer | 14:16 |
| ashaw | I want to point the laser head at a DLP picoprojector and reduce | 14:17 |
| ashaw | doing structured imagin | 14:17 |
| azonenberg | very interesting | 14:17 |
| ashaw | g | 14:17 |
| ashaw | yeah you print a line about 1000 pixels long | 14:18 |
| ashaw | at once | 14:18 |
| ashaw | I've been workign at driving the projector from an FPGA | 14:18 |
| ashaw | and modifying the potics | 14:19 |
| azonenberg | very nice | 14:19 |
| azonenberg | if you get it working can i use you as a mask shop? ;) | 14:19 |
| ashaw | mabe, I am in australia though | 14:19 |
| azonenberg | Cheaper than photronics :p | 14:19 |
| azonenberg | And i want to build one of my own in the longer term | 14:19 |
| azonenberg | do you plan to share designs? | 14:19 |
| ashaw | of course | 14:20 |
| ashaw | also it is going to be designed with a removable reducer | 14:20 |
| ashaw | so you can also use it to image PCBs | 14:20 |
| azonenberg | very interesting | 14:20 |
| azonenberg | Are you using a prebuilt projector and sending hdmi out from the fpga? | 14:20 |
| ashaw | no | 14:20 |
| azonenberg | and what drives the fpga - a GDS? | 14:20 |
| azonenberg | gerber? | 14:21 |
| azonenberg | bitmap? | 14:21 |
| ashaw | at the moment procedurally generated images | 14:21 |
| azonenberg | ok | 14:21 |
| ashaw | on the FPGA | 14:21 |
| azonenberg | which fpga btw? | 14:21 |
| ashaw | a virtex 6 demo board. | 14:21 |
| azonenberg | shiny | 14:22 |
| ashaw | greatly underutalised | 14:22 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:22 |
| Action: azonenberg is using an xc6slx45 atm | 14:22 | |
| ashaw | I have a couple other projects | 14:22 |
| azonenberg | virtexes are too expensive | 14:22 |
| ashaw | one that needs the space | 14:22 |
| azonenberg | I see | 14:22 |
| azonenberg | you can get spartans that big, most likely | 14:22 |
| azonenberg | Just not as fast | 14:22 |
| ashaw | 240K gate? | 14:22 |
| azonenberg | 240k cell? oh | 14:23 |
| azonenberg | lol | 14:23 |
| azonenberg | spartan6 maxes out at 150 i think | 14:23 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:23 |
| azonenberg | what are you building that big? | 14:23 |
| ashaw | that is the standard dev size | 14:23 |
| ashaw | an Out-Of Order, dual issue MMIX CPU | 14:23 |
| azonenberg | out of order execution? Oh joy lol | 14:23 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:23 |
| ashaw | I think cool. | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | And superscalar | 14:24 |
| ashaw | yep | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | I'm having enough trouble debugging pipeline glitches on my single-issue in-order mips1 core lol | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | good luck | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | Of course i havent worked on it in a while | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | been too busy with my current project, a JPEG encoder | 14:24 |
| ashaw | i have been working on this for 2 yes | 14:24 |
| ashaw | cool | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | 100 MHZ at one cycle per pixel | 14:24 |
| azonenberg | on s6 -2 speed | 14:25 |
| ashaw | fun!!! | 14:25 |
| azonenberg | seems to work in simulation, i'm hookign up the final glue for a bare-metal test now | 14:25 |
| azonenberg | block ram for source data, serial port printing out encoded results, etc | 14:25 |
| ashaw | My goal is to get a 1um design rule home fab process done, with a cost of less than $20 000 | 14:26 |
| azonenberg | I would love that, i'm limited to 20 right now by my optics | 14:26 |
| azonenberg | the 40x objective on my scope doesnt quite focus right | 14:26 |
| azonenberg | and immersion litho should hit 1um but i'm having trouble with that too | 14:27 |
| azonenberg | LDI would help that greatly | 14:27 |
| azonenberg | i could use the scope to align but use a contact mask for the actual exposure | 14:27 |
| Action: azonenberg imagines friend coming over in 10 years and seeing an 8-inch karl suss mask aligner in the living room | 14:27 | |
| azonenberg | my lab atm, btw: http://imgur.com/a/Bnwst | 14:28 |
| ashaw | you're a lot further than I am atm | 14:29 |
| azonenberg | in any case it seems our goals are well aligned | 14:29 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:29 |
| azonenberg | Send me your google code email and i'll set you up with repository/wiki access | 14:29 |
| ashaw | I want a bi-cmos process | 14:29 |
| azonenberg | I've been focusing on MEMS | 14:29 |
| ashaw | ah | 14:29 |
| azonenberg | i want to use a KOH wet etch over evaporated Cr hardmask to build a comb drive on a 20um design rule by end of this calendar year | 14:30 |
| ashaw | I have not got very much documentation atm | 14:30 |
| azonenberg | We can fix that | 14:30 |
| ashaw | yeah. | 14:30 |
| azonenberg | http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | 14:30 |
| ashaw | just school is keeping me very busy | 14:30 |
| azonenberg | Top left pic is my first deep etch test | 14:30 |
| azonenberg | ~100um deep into <110> wafer using Cr hardmask | 14:30 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:30 |
| azonenberg | which was too thin, the mask got penetrated in spots | 14:30 |
| ashaw | are you at uni? | 14:31 |
| Action: azonenberg is a phd student in computer science at RPI | 14:31 | |
| azonenberg | no formal training in ee/nanotech whatsoever | 14:31 |
| azonenberg | its just a hobby for me | 14:31 |
| ashaw | I am a 1sy uear undergrad in B. Eng (Elec)/ B. Sci. (CS/Math) | 14:31 |
| azonenberg | In terms of bonding, i was thinking FCBGA | 14:31 |
| azonenberg | stick solder balls on top metal | 14:32 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | flip over and heat gun to the PCB | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | no messing around with wire bonding | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | Most hobbyists are scared of BGA lol | 14:32 |
| ashaw | you need a thick top layer | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | But the funny thing is, on a home asic its the easiest way of doing stuff :p | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | i have successfully soldered to ~1000nm evaporated Cu over ~10nm Cr | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | You have to be careful but its possible | 14:32 |
| azonenberg | but i have dies with 30ga wire coming off them that i soldered to | 14:33 |
| ashaw | I have been designing a compond vaccum chamber | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | just as a PoC, no lithography on that sample | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | and very nice | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | i'm not very far on that | 14:33 |
| ashaw | for doing all this work | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | would have been ,except for the local cops | 14:33 |
| ashaw | what about them? | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | friend of mine got raided last november when his neighbor called 911 on him | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | thought his vacuum chamber was a bomb | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | the court case finally ended last week | 14:33 |
| ashaw | Wah??? | 14:33 |
| azonenberg | he got all of his equipment back (chemicals had been destroyed) and paid a small fine | 14:34 |
| ashaw | what was the fine for? | 14:34 |
| azonenberg | something about attempted obstruction of justice (which is not a crime in this state) | 14:34 |
| azonenberg | basically he wasnt polite enough to the responding officer | 14:34 |
| ashaw | right | 14:34 |
| ashaw | USA? | 14:34 |
| azonenberg | They needed a conviction, even if just a paper victory | 14:34 |
| azonenberg | to make sure he wouldnt sue for malicious prosecution | 14:35 |
| azonenberg | In any case that resulted in me not having vacuum gear for a year | 14:35 |
| azonenberg | or i'd probably have a DC sputtering rig in the living room now | 14:35 |
| ashaw | What is he using for his vaccum chamber? | 14:35 |
| azonenberg | it was a giant varian 18x18x24" stainless steel box | 14:35 |
| azonenberg | that he got for $1k on ebay | 14:35 |
| azonenberg | he was using it for some consulting work too | 14:36 |
| ashaw | I have got a salvage order out at the metal yards here | 14:36 |
| ashaw | looking for 200mm stainless steel pipe | 14:36 |
| azonenberg | In any case, in the interim i've been doing evaporation on campus | 14:36 |
| azonenberg | they have one in the mat sci department that i cna use whenever i want for free | 14:36 |
| ashaw | that is cool | 14:37 |
| azonenberg | cheap and has a few occasional film defects but good enough for my design rules | 14:37 |
| azonenberg | thats how i did all of the metalization for my processes | 14:37 |
| ashaw | I want to use spin foating | 14:37 |
| azonenberg | http://i.imgur.com/VVuYyh.jpg | 14:37 |
| azonenberg | my spin coater | 14:37 |
| ashaw | oh sorry, missunderstoodf you | 14:37 |
| azonenberg | the cardboard thing in the middle is the spatter shield | 14:38 |
| azonenberg | then a 2x4 frame, an electric drill | 14:38 |
| ashaw | it is 1.40 am here | 14:38 |
| azonenberg | and a sanding wheel with some masking tape on it | 14:38 |
| azonenberg | i see, where you at? | 14:38 |
| azonenberg | its ten in the morning | 14:38 |
| ashaw | sydney | 14:38 |
| ashaw | australia | 14:38 |
| azonenberg | that would do it | 14:38 |
| azonenberg | Have you used subversion? | 14:38 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:39 |
| ashaw | but prefer mecurial | 14:39 |
| ashaw | or git | 14:39 |
| ashaw | but not for any of this stuff. | 14:39 |
| ashaw | all on paper | 14:39 |
| azonenberg | well the project is on svn now, switching to git in the longer term is a possibility but svn was what most of the folks working on it preferred | 14:39 |
| azonenberg | http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/source/browse/ | 14:39 |
| azonenberg | http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/source/list | 14:39 |
| azonenberg | i'd love if you could set up a wiki page with some of your work to date | 14:40 |
| azonenberg | just so we know where work is | 14:40 |
| azonenberg | who's gotten how far on what | 14:40 |
| ashaw | yeah, mabee in a few weeks, I will put somehting up. | 14:40 |
| azonenberg | http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/source/browse/trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt summarizes my work | 14:40 |
| ashaw | It is a lot of planninf | 14:40 |
| azonenberg | Surre | 14:41 |
| ashaw | but not much prac | 14:41 |
| azonenberg | send me your google code email address and i'll add you to the project | 14:41 |
| ashaw | alexis.shaw@gmail.com | 14:41 |
| azonenberg | Added | 14:41 |
| ashaw | cool | 14:42 |
| ashaw | I think that a simple atom beam setup can be made | 14:42 |
| azonenberg | I want a SEM/FIB at some point | 14:42 |
| azonenberg | thats further out | 14:43 |
| azonenberg | in case you havent guessed my dream home includes a class 1000 cleanroom :p | 14:43 |
| ashaw | mine an ISO class 3 room | 14:44 |
| azonenberg | whats that in the powers-of-ten scale? | 14:44 |
| azonenberg | 100? | 14:44 |
| ashaw | 1 | 14:45 |
| azonenberg | oh, nice | 14:45 |
| azonenberg | lol | 14:45 |
| azonenberg | My school has a class 100 | 14:45 |
| azonenberg | but i dont think i need that good for 1um design rules on prototype scale fab | 14:45 |
| azonenberg | gotta keep costs down :p | 14:45 |
| ashaw | my final goal is to have a 350nm process at home | 14:45 |
| azonenberg | Mine too :) | 14:46 |
| azonenberg | Good to see somebody who actually is interested in doing lab work, a lot of the folks here are bouncing off ideas but not really doing much | 14:46 |
| azonenberg | the main people doing hands-on work are me, B0101, and swkhan | 14:46 |
| ashaw | I just do not have a garrage atm | 14:46 |
| azonenberg | swkhan is mostly doign thin film work at nasa ames, not as much microfab | 14:47 |
| ashaw | I am at college | 14:47 |
| azonenberg | dorm? small apartment? | 14:47 |
| Action: azonenberg is a grad student | 14:47 | |
| ashaw | single room | 14:47 |
| azonenberg | oh | 14:47 |
| azonenberg | i'm sharing a large apartment with four undergrads | 14:47 |
| azonenberg | nice big common/living room | 14:47 |
| azonenberg | that's turned into a pretty well equipped lab | 14:47 |
| azonenberg | The last tenants, the landlord tells me, had a stripper pole in that corner | 14:48 |
| azonenberg | right about in the same spot i have a 4-inch wafer probing station | 14:48 |
| azonenberg | lol | 14:48 |
| ashaw | I am thinking of renting some industrial spacew | 14:48 |
| ashaw | as soon as I have got my set of test gear | 14:49 |
| azonenberg | If you can afford it, i highly recommend it | 14:49 |
| azonenberg | will help keep neighbors off your back | 14:49 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:49 |
| CIA-67 | homecmos r144 | wiki/CurrentStatus.wiki | Edited wiki page CurrentStatus through web user interface. | 14:49 |
| azonenberg | Did you see this pic btw? http://homecmos.googlecode.com/svn/wiki/images/S7301603_fullres.jpg | 14:50 |
| ashaw | what sort of imaging are you doing | 14:50 |
| azonenberg | I was using a companion cube earlier as a test mask | 14:50 |
| ashaw | yeah | 14:50 |
| azonenberg | but then realized the puns about nyanotechnology were too good to pass up lol | 14:50 |
| azonenberg | And you mean, for looking at test dies?: | 14:50 |
| azonenberg | Mostly my amscope metallurgical microscope | 14:50 |
| azonenberg | i borrow a few hours on SEMs on campus every month or two | 14:51 |
| ashaw | are you using a 405nm bluray laser for imaging? | 14:51 |
| ashaw | or something else? | 14:51 |
| azonenberg | Oh, for exposure | 14:51 |
| azonenberg | I'm actually using two wideband sources | 14:51 |
| azonenberg | depending on the application | 14:51 |
| ashaw | really? | 14:51 |
| azonenberg | for large scale contact litho (mostly PCB fab) i have some quartz-tube mercury vapor lamps | 14:51 |
| azonenberg | not filtered for any specific wavelength | 14:52 |
| azonenberg | and for projection i use a halogen :p | 14:52 |
| ashaw | right | 14:52 |
| ashaw | that may actually be your imagin problem | 14:52 |
| azonenberg | No, the problem is focus | 14:53 |
| ashaw | sure. | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | not chromatic aberration | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | i can see it blurry in the eyepieces | 14:53 |
| ashaw | right | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | also, more importantly, drift in my stage | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | it moves during the exposure | 14:53 |
| ashaw | ouch | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | been meaning to buy an aftermarket stage | 14:53 |
| ashaw | what are you using for the stage? | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | the amscope is a cheap scope ($800ish) | 14:53 |
| azonenberg | should probably just invest in an olympus/nikon or osmething | 14:54 |
| ashaw | Why not get a pyrex blank and mill out a wafer holder | 14:54 |
| ashaw | and a dichronic mirror | 14:55 |
| ashaw | as a viewer | 14:55 |
| ashaw | I'll be studying machining next year | 14:57 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, you have access to web of knowledge eh? | 15:03 |
| bart416 | (or anybody else for that matter) | 15:03 |
| bart416 | I can't get Author(s): Sunaga, H (Sunaga, H); Hoshiai, T (Hoshiai, T); Kamei, S (Kamei, S); Kimura, S (Kimura, S) | 15:06 |
| bart416 | Source: IEICE TRANSACTIONS ON COMMUNICATIONS Volume: E87B Issue: 10 Pages: 2831-2846 Published: OCT 2004 | 15:06 |
| bart416 | for some reason :( | 15:06 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: back in a bit, have ppl over for a project | 15:33 |
| ashaw | gog anyway | 15:45 |
| ashaw | gtg | 15:46 |
| ashaw | sleep | 15:46 |
| azonenberg | back | 16:21 |
| ashaw | same | 17:04 |
| Action: azonenberg waits patiently for tuesday when new batch of wafers arrives | 17:09 | |
| ashaw | ahh. | 17:13 |
| ashaw | in your work, what type of wafer is best, 100, 110 or 111 and why? | 17:13 |
| azonenberg | <100> is more commonly used for CMOS | 17:14 |
| azonenberg | in MEMS a KOH/TMAH etch will produce 4-sided pyramidal holes that are 30 degrees from the surface plane | 17:14 |
| azonenberg | and aligned to the <111> planes | 17:14 |
| azonenberg | <110> etches vertically in KOH/TMAH | 17:14 |
| azonenberg | the <111> planes are parallel and i think 70 degrees to the wafer flat | 17:15 |
| azonenberg | in <100> wafers the <111> planes are parallel and perpendicular | 17:15 |
| ashaw | oh cool | 17:16 |
| ashaw | What size wafer do you want to use? | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | Uusally 2 inch | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | I dont ever work with full wafers though | 17:16 |
| ashaw | why? | 17:17 |
| azonenberg | Because i never need to make that many devices at once | 17:17 |
| azonenberg | i usually work with ~3mm dies | 17:17 |
| azonenberg | So i buy a 2-inch wafer, evaporate metal over the entire surface, then cleave into small samples and do litho on each one separately | 17:18 |
| azonenberg | often using a different mask for each test | 17:18 |
| ashaw | what devices have you made? | 17:18 |
| azonenberg | Successfully? None | 17:18 |
| azonenberg | So far i've mostly been doing test patterns to improve lithography resolution | 17:18 |
| azonenberg | i've done parallel lines at 20um half-pitch | 17:18 |
| ashaw | using your microscope | 17:18 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 17:18 |
| ashaw | yeah, I've seen that | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | Then etched them into <110> Si using a Cr hardmask | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | Which was not thick enough so the pattern wasnt as sharp as it should have been | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | areas that werent supposed to be etched got attacked | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | http://i.imgur.com/WB3gX.jpg | 17:20 |
| azonenberg | the sum total of my work to date | 17:20 |
| ashaw | what is the grid pattern? | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | sticky gel tray for holding the dies | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | so they dont shake around | 17:23 |
| ashaw | ah cool | 17:24 |
| ashaw | do you do cmp? | 17:25 |
| azonenberg | Do i have the facilities for it? Have i attempted it? Have i been successful? | 17:25 |
| azonenberg | I have abrasives ranging from sandpaper to 6um diamond to 250nm diamond to 60nm colloidal silica | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | havent had the time to do much process development yet | 17:26 |
| ashaw | all three | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | so yes, yes, no :p | 17:27 |
| ashaw | have you got a precision turn table? | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | i wish | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | you know what my spin coater is? | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | A drill | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | and a sanding wheel :p | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | The stuff i have now will not scale to submicron | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | i have no illusions about that | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | But i want to get everything working at a large scale before shrinking | 17:28 |
| ashaw | Cool, I understand that. | 17:30 |
| ashaw | I was just asking | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | Definitely on the roadmap | 17:30 |
| ashaw | perhaps share the design of the CMP spindle and the spin coater? | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | my cmp is done with finger pressure on the back of the die | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | against a microscope slide lol | 17:31 |
| ashaw | ouch | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | and the spin coater i havent documented much because i plan to do a second revision in the near future | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | that one will be fully open | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | this one i dont have any deisgn documents etc for | 17:31 |
| ashaw | have you tried using a CPU fan? | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | Tried, no | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | considered, yes | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | problem is the air movement and the poor speed control | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | i want to get a similar motor, probably from an rc aircraft | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | but use a better speed controller so i can do engine braking etc | 17:32 |
| ashaw | right | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | and do closed loop feedback control with a nice process controller that lets me specify multiple steps | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | for example, go up to 60 rpm | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | wait 1 minute while i apply resist | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | then go up to 500 to spread for 30 sec | 17:33 |
| azonenberg | 3000 to thin for 60 sec | 17:33 |
| azonenberg | then stop over the course of 10 sec | 17:33 |
| ashaw | cool | 17:34 |
| ashaw | I have been thinking about how to hold the wafer. | 17:34 |
| azonenberg | i use masking tape | 17:34 |
| azonenberg | sticky side up | 17:34 |
| ashaw | that works | 17:34 |
| azonenberg | then tape the end of the tape down with a second piece | 17:34 |
| azonenberg | i want a vacuum chuck | 17:35 |
| azonenberg | eventually | 17:35 |
| ashaw | As I said before, I am looking forward to doing a precision machining course next year | 17:35 |
| azonenberg | :) | 17:35 |
| azonenberg | i took the intro shop class here but never did anything beyond 0.005 inch tolerance | 17:36 |
| azonenberg | which is huge | 17:36 |
| ashaw | what 0.15mm? | 17:37 |
| ashaw | yeah that is woute big | 17:37 |
| azonenberg | something like that | 17:37 |
| ashaw | So are you thinking of useing somthing like LOCOS? | 17:39 |
| azonenberg | Not sure yet, i havent though much about the cmos side of things | 17:40 |
| azonenberg | my process for the comb drive is relatively straightforward | 17:40 |
| azonenberg | Evaporate 1000nm Cr over both sides of <110> 2-side-polished wafer | 17:40 |
| azonenberg | Apply photoresist to both sides | 17:41 |
| azonenberg | sorry, i cleave into dies first | 17:41 |
| azonenberg | then apply PR | 17:41 |
| azonenberg | (have to figure out how to hold it to the coater without damaging the resist) | 17:41 |
| azonenberg | Expose backside etch mask (a big square cutout in the middle of the die), develop, etch in HCl | 17:42 |
| azonenberg | I also forgot to mention that without breaking vacuum i'll do maybe 50nm Cu over the Cr | 17:42 |
| azonenberg | since Cu's native oxide is etchable but Cr's is hard to remove | 17:42 |
| azonenberg | So then i wet etch the die in 30% KOH at ~85C until i've gone down around 400 microns | 17:42 |
| azonenberg | then i apply resist to both sides again, expose the comb drive mask | 17:43 |
| azonenberg | etch hardmask, etch Si | 17:43 |
| azonenberg | the KOH etch will start going down from the top, while continuing to go up from the bottom | 17:43 |
| azonenberg | they meet ~50um from the top of the wafer | 17:43 |
| azonenberg | leaving me with my comb drive fingers 50um thick, ~20um across | 17:43 |
| azonenberg | and a 500um thick carrier ring around the whole thing | 17:44 |
| azonenberg | Then i strip the Cr hardmask | 17:44 |
| azonenberg | grow thermal oxide over the entire die to prevent shorts | 17:44 |
| azonenberg | evaporate metal 1 | 17:44 |
| azonenberg | lithography of metal 1 mask | 17:44 |
| azonenberg | boom done | 17:44 |
| azonenberg | I have not yet perfected the through-wafer etch process but the rest shoudl not be too hard | 17:44 |
| ashaw | yeah, quite a simple process | 17:44 |
| ashaw | for cmos, it seems that some CVD will be a nescesity | 17:45 |
| azonenberg | Why do you say that | 17:45 |
| azonenberg | gate oxide can be sol-gel Ta2O5 | 17:46 |
| azonenberg | as an added benefit that's high-K | 17:46 |
| azonenberg | (but its a PITA to etch) | 17:46 |
| azonenberg | Can be deposited by spin coating though | 17:46 |
| azonenberg | https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246731_2099114599044_1280772249_2517084_4941952_n.jpg is the first draft of my comb drive top etch mask btw | 17:46 |
| ashaw | what about inter transistor isolation | 17:47 |
| azonenberg | LOCOS and/or SOI are options | 17:47 |
| azonenberg | like i said mems has been my focus so far | 17:47 |
| ashaw | LOCOS requires CVD of SiN | 17:47 |
| azonenberg | No | 17:47 |
| azonenberg | It requires a diffusion mask | 17:47 |
| azonenberg | Which is usually Si3N4 | 17:48 |
| azonenberg | But does not have t obe | 17:48 |
| ashaw | what would you use? | 17:48 |
| azonenberg | Ta2O5 is a possibility | 17:48 |
| azonenberg | I might also consider reactive sputtering in a nitrogen atmosphere | 17:48 |
| azonenberg | The main problem with cvd of si3n4 is that it involves dealing with silanes | 17:49 |
| azonenberg | not fun | 17:49 |
| azonenberg | reactive sputtering might be worth considering | 17:49 |
| azonenberg | of say a silicon target in argon with a little N2 | 17:49 |
| ashaw | yeah that might work, and then deposit the cover oxide later? | 17:50 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 17:50 |
| azonenberg | you can replace CVD SiO2 by sol-gel or possibly reactive sputtering of Si with some O2 | 17:50 |
| azonenberg | not sure if that last process would work | 17:50 |
| azonenberg | but spin-on glass is a known material | 17:50 |
| ashaw | Oh, I just thought of a problem. | 17:50 |
| ashaw | you need the SiO2 in order to protect the silicon when removing the Si3N4 | 17:51 |
| azonenberg | The more the merrier | 17:51 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 17:51 |
| azonenberg | How do you strip nitride? | 17:51 |
| azonenberg | HF or phosphoric? | 17:51 |
| Action: azonenberg digs out wet etch table | 17:51 | |
| azonenberg | PECVD nitride, low refractive index - near zero in KOH and 10:1 HF, 60nm/min in BHF | 17:52 |
| azonenberg | phosphoric + sulfuirc works but the table doesnt have an etch rate listed | 17:53 |
| azonenberg | pure phosphoric works too | 17:53 |
| azonenberg | And what would the nitride be deposited over | 17:53 |
| azonenberg | thermal oxide? | 17:54 |
| azonenberg | Phosphoric doesnt bother that very much | 17:54 |
| azonenberg | The biggest goal in the process, to make it safe and hobbyist-friendly, is to not require flammable, explosive, or toxic gases | 17:55 |
| azonenberg | Small volumes of inert gases like N2 or Ar for sputtering etc are ok | 17:55 |
| ashaw | Looking at some documentation here you cannot deposit the Si3N4 directly over Si | 17:55 |
| azonenberg | The papers i've read suggest thermal oxide | 17:55 |
| ashaw | it must be over the protective layer. | 17:55 |
| azonenberg | so grow dry oxide 50nm or so | 17:55 |
| ashaw | yeah | 17:56 |
| azonenberg | then reactive sputter a Si target | 17:56 |
| azonenberg | with some N2 | 17:56 |
| ashaw | how? | 17:56 |
| ashaw | you have a layer of siO2 not Si | 17:56 |
| ashaw | you are reactive sputtering with SiO2 | 17:57 |
| azonenberg | I am saying, sputter Si onto the SiO2 | 18:01 |
| azonenberg | in a mixed Ar + N2 atmosphere | 18:01 |
| azonenberg | http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JESOAN000114000008000826000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | They didnt even use any argon, pure nitrogren gave a better mix | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | "Silicon nitride films (from 500 to 7500Å in thickness) have been deposited on silicon and silicon dioxide by reactive sputtering of a silicon cathode in a N2 glow discharge" | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | "Argon and nitrogen gas mixtures resulted in excess silicon incorporation in the deposited nitride films. " | 18:02 |
| azonenberg | so you use pure N2 for stoichometric nitride and add argon if you want to be Si rich | 18:03 |
| azonenberg | am i missing something here? if so, please tell me | 18:04 |
| ashaw | Oh, cool | 18:04 |
| ashaw | so you sputter rather than CVD the Si3N4 | 18:04 |
| azonenberg | Yes, thats the whole point | 18:06 |
| azonenberg | no need for silanes or other nasty gases | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | just a little N2 and optionally some argon | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | You can also sputter SiO2 but i forget if its usually a SiO2 target or reactive of Si + O2 | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | Evaporation is preferred as no gases are required at all | 18:07 |
| azonenberg | For materials we cant evaporate, or need step coverage, sputter | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | But CVD is top of the no-no list | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | with spin coating obviously as the first choice | 18:08 |
| ashaw | no, there is one worse | 18:08 |
| ashaw | epitaxey | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | When swkhan comes back let her vent for a while | 18:08 |
| azonenberg | she's been battling ALD of ZnO for weeks now | 18:08 |
| ashaw | ald? | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | atomic layer deposition | 18:09 |
| ashaw | ah | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | its a form of epitaxial CVD | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | apply one precursor, form a monolayer on your targert | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | purge chamber | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | apply other precursor, let it react, purge | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | repeat | 18:09 |
| ashaw | ouch | 18:09 |
| ashaw | why? | 18:09 |
| azonenberg | it lets you control thickness extremely accurately, and if you are on the right substrate produce a monocrystalline epitaxial film | 18:10 |
| azonenberg | But its also a pain to get working apparently lol | 18:10 |
| ashaw | I mean why does whe want to do it? | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | No idea, its apparently part of a larger project at the lab | 18:11 |
| azonenberg | which i know very little about | 18:12 |
| ashaw | Oh cool. | 18:13 |
| ashaw | It does look like if we can get CMP worked out, It will make a lot of other things easier | 18:13 |
| azonenberg | Agreed | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | Including polishing of cross section samples | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | One problem i'm having for cross sections is that my photoresist is soluble in some component of ted pella diamond paste lol | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | i dont know what it is, the msds says "proprietary nonhazardous water-based formula" | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | But it takes my resist right off | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | fast enouhg that there is definitely chemical action as well as mechanical going on | 18:14 |
| azonenberg | i wanted to measure undercut in a TEM image | 18:15 |
| ashaw | why not sputter over the mask | 18:16 |
| azonenberg | I have a couple of ideas | 18:16 |
| azonenberg | The point is, that was one of several problems i had polishing | 18:16 |
| azonenberg | another is contamination | 18:16 |
| azonenberg | Large polishing compound gets stuck on the surface | 18:16 |
| azonenberg | and causes deep scratches when i try a fine polish | 18:16 |
| azonenberg | i think i need to sonicate to get it off | 18:16 |
| ashaw | what is your finest polish? | 18:17 |
| azonenberg | 60nm colloidal silica is the smallest | 18:17 |
| azonenberg | next up is 250, 500nm diamond | 18:17 |
| ashaw | yeah, that is probably too big | 18:18 |
| ashaw | need finer | 18:18 |
| azonenberg | Too big? | 18:19 |
| azonenberg | For what | 18:19 |
| azonenberg | You can always get smaller CMP slurry | 18:19 |
| azonenberg | http://www.alliedhightech.com/polishing/colloidalsus/ | 18:20 |
| azonenberg | goes down to 20nm | 18:20 |
| azonenberg | bear in midn these are spherical particles too | 18:23 |
| azonenberg | So 20nm will not give you a 20nm surface finish, it'll go smaller | 18:23 |
| ashaw | oh yeah. | 18:23 |
| ashaw | forgot. | 18:23 |
| azonenberg | the diamond is rough, i think | 18:23 |
| azonenberg | might be crystalline chunks | 18:23 |
| ashaw | colloids can be rought too | 18:23 |
| azonenberg | the silica is round in most cases specificlaly though | 18:24 |
| azonenberg | its made for that purpose | 18:24 |
| berndj | azonenberg, i'm really glad you guys got your vacuum chamber back (albeit sans chemicals), but also bummed about both the primary and secondary miscarriages of justice | 18:31 |
| berndj | by secondary i mean the "obstruction of justice" thing | 18:32 |
| azonenberg | It was pretty ridiculous | 18:32 |
| azonenberg | Especially taking a whole year | 18:32 |
| azonenberg | the raid was last november | 18:32 |
| azonenberg | It drove him out of school, he had to take a full time job to pay legal fees | 18:32 |
| azonenberg | all this because the local cops wanted to save face rather than admitting "sorry, we misunderstood" | 18:33 |
| berndj | malicious prosecution would be exactly right! | 18:33 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, but the deal prevents him from suing | 18:33 |
| berndj | a DEAL? | 18:33 |
| azonenberg | the alternative would have been going to trial | 18:33 |
| berndj | oh that. yes, that's another major flaw with justice systems | 18:34 |
| azonenberg | which would have been an acceptable risk in normal cases | 18:34 |
| azonenberg | But one in which it's you vs a police department that doesnt want to screw up publicly... | 18:34 |
| azonenberg | Doesnt usually go well for the defendant | 18:34 |
| berndj | so the deal was, "here, we'll convict you of obstruction of justice, and in return you promise not to sue us" | 18:34 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 18:34 |
| berndj | pfft | 18:35 |
| azonenberg | well, more precisely by accepting the deal its considered a conviction so he loses the right to sue | 18:35 |
| berndj | i imagine you guys just want it all to be over | 18:35 |
| azonenberg | its the equivalent of a guilty plea | 18:35 |
| berndj | but i'd be cooking up revenge fantasies getting hold of ACLU etc | 18:35 |
| berndj | that's just so broken! | 18:35 |
| azonenberg | It is | 18:35 |
| azonenberg | I've been busy over the last year trying to make sure nobody will ever be able to do the same to me | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | reading up on the fire code, zoning ordnances | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | hazmat disposal policies | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | msds book and documented lab policy in a visible place | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | running by the book even more than some labs on capmus | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | campus* | 18:36 |
| berndj | good thing obstruction of justice isn't a criminal offence though - i'm surprised though, did i get that right? | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | Not exactly | 18:36 |
| azonenberg | Obstruction is a misdemeanor | 18:37 |
| azonenberg | he pled to *attempted* obstruction | 18:37 |
| berndj | but not a felony? | 18:37 |
| azonenberg | which is some kind of hypothetical offense that is not actually illegal | 18:37 |
| berndj | omg, it's even weirder than i thought | 18:37 |
| azonenberg | so basically he has no crimes on his record but by virtue of being a paper conviction (and paying a token fine to drive the point home) | 18:37 |
| azonenberg | he cant sue | 18:37 |
| azonenberg | And he cant come out and say he was innocent afterwards | 18:39 |
| azonenberg | Since i was not a defendant, i can :P | 18:39 |
| berndj | spam your senator or something! | 18:39 |
| azonenberg | he tried, no response | 18:40 |
| azonenberg | he was being branded a terrorist in the media | 18:40 |
| azonenberg | ended up changing his name and moving halfway across the country | 18:40 |
| berndj | omglolwtf | 18:40 |
| azonenberg | i am not kidding | 18:40 |
| azonenberg | they basically did their best to ruin his life so they wouldnt have to admit they made a mistake | 18:40 |
| berndj | i keep tellin ya, you're in the wrong country | 18:41 |
| ashaw | berndj, where are you? | 18:41 |
| berndj | south africa | 18:41 |
| azonenberg | you suggest we move to a police state like the UK or a communist dictatorship like NK? | 18:41 |
| azonenberg | It's not a good situation but i think its not quite as bad | 18:42 |
| berndj | no, i suggest you move to a quasi third-world country | 18:42 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 18:42 |
| azonenberg | If i did that i'd probably end up designing weaponry for some warlord | 18:42 |
| berndj | we're actually more like a quantum superposition of a first and third world country | 18:42 |
| azonenberg | not doing useful research | 18:42 |
| ashaw | yeah I get that | 18:43 |
| berndj | with coefficients 0.1 and 0.9, respectively | 18:43 |
| ashaw | oh and btw, we beat you in the tri nations | 18:43 |
| berndj | yeah, we always choke and leave thing up to the tailenders | 18:44 |
| ashaw | right..... | 18:44 |
| Action: berndj doesn't follow sport, hence doesn't care | 18:44 | |
| azonenberg | lol | 18:44 |
| Action: ashaw doesn't either, just wanted to try to make conversation | 18:45 | |
| berndj | the dirty little secret most south africans don't know is that australia regularly nukes us in rugby, one of our first-tier sports, whereas in australia i gather it's just something you play if no other team picks you | 18:46 |
| berndj | really quite a minority sport. could be wrong of course | 18:46 |
| ashaw | yeah union is minority | 18:47 |
| ashaw | but still big enough | 18:47 |
| berndj | which end are you? west? east? | 18:47 |
| azonenberg | enough about sports :p | 18:47 |
| ashaw | east | 18:48 |
| ashaw | sydney | 18:48 |
| berndj | ashaw, is it easy(ish) to get high-tech supplies in sydney? | 18:49 |
| ashaw | of what kind? | 18:49 |
| berndj | Si wafers, for argument's sake. or semi devices that aren't a 2N3055 | 18:50 |
| ashaw | I can get a lot of ICs and stuff, element14 has an office here. | 18:50 |
| ashaw | but silicon wafers not so much | 18:51 |
| ashaw | and like everyone PCBs go to china | 18:51 |
| berndj | i can get common stuff here, but it seems like anything more than that, and it's order from overseas time | 18:51 |
| berndj | we do still have pcb houses though. probably even 4-layer | 18:52 |
| ashaw | we have them here, but sooo expensive | 18:52 |
| berndj | azonenberg, what sort of chemicals did you guys not get back? | 18:53 |
| azonenberg | berndj: common solvents, drain cleaner (why?), fluorescent dye, and some concentrated HNO3 | 18:54 |
| ashaw | so like stuff you can buy at a hardware store | 18:54 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 18:54 |
| azonenberg | the hno3 was ACS grade | 18:54 |
| ashaw | yeah | 18:55 |
| azonenberg | But stuff like acetone and denatured alcohol | 18:55 |
| ashaw | so a hardware store and a drug store | 18:55 |
| azonenberg | Yep | 18:55 |
| azonenberg | They considered it dangerous | 18:55 |
| berndj | claim that the chemicals were yours and sue them for that | 18:55 |
| azonenberg | They claimed that they were destroyed "because they were dangerous" | 18:55 |
| berndj | lol. are these people even human? | 18:56 |
| ashaw | have you got propper chamical storage atm? | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | His response to the judge on hearing that was "Better send hazmat over to the hardware store. I heard they're stockpiling the stuff" | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: Relatively, yes | 18:56 |
| ashaw | up to code? | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | For home use, certainly | 18:56 |
| ashaw | so double containered | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | solvents / acids / flammables separated by significant distance | 18:56 |
| ashaw | so double containered | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | I have trays under most | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | working on getting everything | 18:56 |
| berndj | waitaminute... this all got as far as being in front of a judge, who didn't then dismiss the case?? | 18:56 |
| ashaw | trays made of? | 18:56 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: glass | 18:57 |
| ashaw | aaah | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | berndj: yes | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | he did not | 18:57 |
| berndj | jeepers! | 18:57 |
| berndj | impeach! | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | he dismissed some charges but not all | 18:57 |
| ashaw | which ones were not dismissed? | 18:57 |
| azonenberg | the obstruction, which was related to him refusing to leave his home when ordered to do so by an officer who had entered it illegally (without a warrant) and with no obvious reason | 18:58 |
| ashaw | right | 18:58 |
| ashaw | what were they affraid of? | 18:59 |
| azonenberg | Why were they there? why did they ask him to leave? | 18:59 |
| berndj | ashaw, i was in aus a few times and i got the impression something like this could easily happen in aus too. comment? | 18:59 |
| azonenberg | why didnt they drop charges whe nthey realized he was harmless? | 18:59 |
| berndj | seemed like a pretty police and rules-centric country | 18:59 |
| ashaw | yeah, I'm trying to set up a lab here. | 18:59 |
| ashaw | but getting arround the regs is hard | 19:00 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: re trays, i know i am not up to osha codes because i dont have an eyewash (though i do have a shower in the bathroom a 10 sec run away | 19:00 |
| ashaw | will have to rent commercial spave | 19:00 |
| azonenberg | But its not a workplace | 19:00 |
| azonenberg | so osha doesnt have jurisdiction | 19:00 |
| azonenberg | and secondary containment, while advisable, is not required for private homes | 19:00 |
| ashaw | OH&S? | 19:00 |
| azonenberg | I have it on most of the stuff | 19:00 |
| azonenberg | not the large cans of hardware store solvents | 19:01 |
| berndj | i hope that besides lab managers, you also count lawyers among your friends, azonenberg ! | 19:01 |
| azonenberg | when they run out i'll be replacing them with much smaller volumes of higher purity | 19:01 |
| ashaw | and what about disposal? | 19:01 |
| ashaw | how are you dealing with that? | 19:01 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: stored in properly labeled containers and then disposed of depending on the material | 19:01 |
| ashaw | cool | 19:02 |
| azonenberg | Acid and base waste with no toxic stuff like heavy metals is neutralized to pH 7 +/- 0.5 | 19:02 |
| azonenberg | diluted 10:1 with water and drain disposed | 19:02 |
| ashaw | I would prefer that PTFE trays were used instead of glass | 19:02 |
| azonenberg | everything else is taken to an official dipsosal site | 19:02 |
| ashaw | yeah | 19:02 |
| azonenberg | and i dont have ptft atm but i will be getting it for the HF | 19:02 |
| ashaw | all really complicated and annoying. | 19:02 |
| azonenberg | bear in mind that my local grocery store stores the hf on metal shelving | 19:02 |
| ashaw | At least they did not see the analytic glass and say he was running a drug lab | 19:03 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: they tried | 19:03 |
| azonenberg | tested samples of everythign he had | 19:03 |
| azonenberg | but he was smart enough to not keep any drug precursors around | 19:03 |
| azonenberg | not even in tiny amounts | 19:03 |
| azonenberg | so they had no basis | 19:03 |
| azonenberg | i do the same here | 19:03 |
| ashaw | yeah | 19:03 |
| ashaw | I mean it is so hard to have an analytic chemistry lab without being able to do that stuff | 19:04 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 19:05 |
| azonenberg | The other thing in my favor is that my landlord is a retired police chief | 19:05 |
| ashaw | and when you get to precursers of percursers | 19:05 |
| azonenberg | Who knows full well what i am doing | 19:05 |
| azonenberg | and is completely fine with it | 19:05 |
| ashaw | Yeah, political help | 19:05 |
| azonenberg | i even showed him the MSDS book a few times to be 100% up front and make it clear i was hiding nothing | 19:05 |
| azonenberg | One of his problems is that he was less open about what he was doing | 19:06 |
| ashaw | right | 19:06 |
| azonenberg | i want it to be clear from the start i have nothing to hide | 19:06 |
| berndj | omg i have atoms in my house! i can make drugs! | 19:06 |
| azonenberg | which a drug lab would never do | 19:06 |
| ashaw | it is a bit more than that berndj | 19:06 |
| ashaw | he would have volumetric glassware | 19:06 |
| ashaw | and analytic balances | 19:06 |
| cheater | who are you guys talking about | 19:07 |
| azonenberg | cheater: friend of mine who got himself raided last year | 19:07 |
| azonenberg | because the neighbor saw vacuum gear and called the police on him | 19:07 |
| cheater | was he actually making any drugs | 19:07 |
| azonenberg | cheater: no, he was doing semiconductor research lol | 19:07 |
| azonenberg | They never actually officially claimed they thought he was a drug lab as they had no evidence | 19:08 |
| berndj | so what DID they claim??? | 19:08 |
| azonenberg | first, that his 100ml of HNO3 was a life-threatening danger to everyone on the block :p | 19:08 |
| cheater | was it? | 19:08 |
| azonenberg | then that it could have reacted badly with the solvents stored 20 feet away | 19:08 |
| azonenberg | then finally started grasping at straws | 19:09 |
| azonenberg | and said that when the officer told him to leave the buliding he hadnt done so | 19:09 |
| berndj | did they propose an actual reaction that could have led to, say, HCN? | 19:09 |
| azonenberg | nope | 19:09 |
| azonenberg | they alleged they could have "produced an exothermic reaction" | 19:09 |
| ashaw | what like aluminium | 19:09 |
| ashaw | that his windows were made of | 19:09 |
| berndj | they should have just convicted him of BEING an exothermic reaction | 19:10 |
| ashaw | and rust | 19:10 |
| azonenberg | the theory was that if the hno3, drain cleaner (poor quality h2so4) and acetone had mixed | 19:10 |
| azonenberg | it had maybe a 10% chance of causing a small fire | 19:10 |
| azonenberg | Stored some distance apart, separate shelves, etc | 19:10 |
| ashaw | rught??? | 19:10 |
| azonenberg | when that claim fell apart they finally reduced their claims to the obstruction | 19:10 |
| azonenberg | which he couldnt defend against | 19:11 |
| cheater | lol, damn cops. | 19:11 |
| ashaw | and the risk that the iso got tooo hot was not higher | 19:11 |
| azonenberg | it was his word against the officer | 19:11 |
| ashaw | do yuo have video cameras up arround your house? | 19:11 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: i have a bunch of webcams but nothign deployed atm | 19:11 |
| azonenberg | you suggest i stream any such encounter to a secure offsite location? | 19:11 |
| ashaw | yep. | 19:12 |
| cheater | yes | 19:12 |
| azonenberg | That was my plan as well actually | 19:12 |
| cheater | but make sure to have a lot of notification | 19:12 |
| ashaw | I have a server in luxemburg where I could keep a 2 loop if you want | 19:12 |
| cheater | plaques that inform about cameras | 19:12 |
| azonenberg | i have my own offsite backups etc | 19:12 |
| cheater | otherwise in some places the recording might be illegal | 19:12 |
| berndj | cheater, do you need that though if it's on your own premises? | 19:12 |
| azonenberg | And in NY its legal given the consent of one party | 19:12 |
| azonenberg | Me | 19:13 |
| cheater | you do | 19:13 |
| cheater | in germany you do, at least | 19:13 |
| berndj | not like he'd be filming the street | 19:13 |
| cheater | since i moved here i was surprised by a few laws | 19:13 |
| cheater | doesn't matter berndj | 19:13 |
| berndj | yeah but germany is a bit meschugge sometimes :) | 19:13 |
| cheater | law is law | 19:13 |
| cheater | yes | 19:13 |
| ashaw | Sighneage is good though | 19:13 |
| Action: berndj is german | 19:13 | |
| cheater | so check with your local laws | 19:13 |
| cheater | you mean signage? | 19:13 |
| ashaw | "warning CCTV in use" | 19:14 |
| cheater | yes | 19:14 |
| berndj | good idea either way, i agree | 19:14 |
| cheater | resolves any ambiguous legal situation | 19:14 |
| ashaw | Only has to be a couple stickers on windows | 19:14 |
| berndj | could even prevent overzealous cops from going too far in the first place - might make them think a bit harder about what they do | 19:14 |
| ashaw | yeah | 19:15 |
| berndj | but watch out for evidenciary rules | 19:15 |
| berndj | germany for example might not permit footage stored in another country! | 19:15 |
| berndj | (just guessing) | 19:15 |
| azonenberg | i have in-country servers that are pretty hard to find | 19:15 |
| ashaw | keep a buffer on site in case they pull the phone line | 19:16 |
| azonenberg | ashaw: I do not expect a full on response like that, we arent talkign a hostage situation here | 19:16 |
| ashaw | and have a backup mobile connection | 19:16 |
| ashaw | you never know with the USA | 19:16 |
| ashaw | really | 19:17 |
| azonenberg | For that matter, now that its been a year since his raid i think the odds of anyone bothering me are low | 19:17 |
| berndj | just reading about all this, i have to conclude that america is fscked | 19:17 |
| cheater | it is | 19:17 |
| berndj | it is, for all kinds of reasons, but this is another one that mainstream media don't cover | 19:18 |
| berndj | i spy with my little eye a fixed rubik cube in azonenberg's lab | 19:20 |
| berndj | can't say i'm surprised | 19:21 |
| azonenberg | lol | 19:21 |
| azonenberg | Was never actually that good at them | 19:21 |
| berndj | i geeked out on them when i was a kid | 19:21 |
| berndj | used to be able to do it semi-consistently <60s | 19:21 |
| berndj | what is that thing that looks like an electric drill, but has a flexible tube running from the chuck into a cardboard box??? | 19:22 |
| ashaw | the spin coater. | 19:23 |
| ashaw | it is an electric drill | 19:23 |
| azonenberg | the cardboard is a spatter shiedl | 19:24 |
| azonenberg | *shield | 19:24 |
| berndj | ah! and a flexible coupling hose type thing? | 19:25 |
| azonenberg | yep | 19:25 |
| cheater | where do i see the pic? | 19:28 |
| cheater | berndj :) | 19:32 |
| berndj | cheater: http://imgur.com/a/Bnwst - third-last pic | 19:34 |
| cheater | looking | 19:45 |
| flyback- | i'd be an asshole to my neighbor after that | 19:48 |
| cheater | is he a | 19:49 |
| cheater | CANUCK? | 19:49 |
| flyback- | people are such idiots | 19:49 |
| flyback- | I seen commerials telling people to snitch stuff out | 19:50 |
| flyback- | i've decided I rather let the country burn | 19:50 |
| flyback- | i'm so fed up with the way some law enforcement behaves | 19:51 |
| flyback- | hell with it all | 19:51 |
| flyback- | but I think the video is a good idea | 19:52 |
| flyback- | have it stream to multiple other locations | 19:52 |
| cheater | yup | 19:53 |
| flyback- | the terrorists can have the country as far as I am concerned anymore | 19:56 |
| flyback- | between the way the tsa, etc acts and a bunch of other bullshit | 19:56 |
| cheater | there's nothing terrorists can do to america that the american's haven't | 19:57 |
| cheater | lol | 19:57 |
| cheater | americans | 19:57 |
| flyback- | i've pretty much given up on anything | 20:01 |
| flyback- | i've given up on bein able to ever invent anything | 20:04 |
| flyback- | thx to patent trolls | 20:04 |
| flyback- | wish I was wrong | 20:08 |
| azonenberg | oh, you can invent stuff | 20:13 |
| azonenberg | You just cant market it without getting sued :p | 20:13 |
| flyback- | i've give up on society, etc | 20:17 |
| flyback- | I can't wait to die | 20:17 |
| cheater | hahaha | 20:31 |
| berndj | vhemt.org | 20:33 |
| berndj | maybe it's all an anarchist deep cover operation - propaganda of the deed | 20:34 |
| berndj | to get normal people so upset with government they'd rather have anarchy | 20:34 |
| berndj | azonenberg, do you grok patents? i've always wondered if you're allowed to use a patented invention sans licence even at home | 20:35 |
| azonenberg | Not very much, no | 20:35 |
| cheater | why not | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | gaah, finally making some progress | 21:11 |
| azonenberg | The bug i've been fighting with (that only occurred on hardware and not in simulation) | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | now occurs in simulation too :p | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | Re patents, the de facto rule is the same as copyrights | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | If you draw their attention they'll come after you | 21:13 |
| azonenberg | But if you arent worth the money, they'll probably leave you alone | 21:13 |
| ashaw | actually patent infringement in research is allowed, or so I had read | 21:20 |
| azonenberg | Research they have exemptions for but i dont know the full details | 21:25 |
| flyback- | http://boingboing.net/2011/10/08/wipo-boss-the-web-would-have-been-better-if-it-was-patented-and-its-users-had-to-pay-license-fees.html <-- idiot | 21:29 |
| azonenberg | ... | 21:29 |
| berndj | not an idiot - just the enemy | 21:59 |
| --- Mon Oct 10 2011 | 00:00 | |
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