| B0101 | hi azonenberg | 01:50 |
|---|---|---|
| azonenberg | hi | 01:51 |
| azonenberg | how's the quantum computing going? | 01:51 |
| azonenberg | i'm just writing up a lab manual for my lab that describes some of the more common processes | 01:51 |
| B0101 | the SQUID problem is not fixed yet | 01:52 |
| B0101 | I might try QDs soon but not untill SQUIDS are done | 01:53 |
| azonenberg | i see | 01:53 |
| B0101 | omg... | 02:22 |
| azonenberg | B0101: ? | 02:27 |
| azonenberg | swkhan: if you are still interested in SiO2 stuff i can mail you a 4" <100> single-side-polish wafer this weekend | 02:28 |
| azonenberg | PM me the address | 02:28 |
| azonenberg | Do what you want with it, all i ask is that i get at least half of it back | 02:28 |
| azonenberg | preferably with thermal oxide on it | 02:28 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: i found that my silicon is being destroyed slowly by an unknown substance | 02:31 |
| azonenberg | Destroyed slowly | 02:31 |
| azonenberg | as in, you have a contaminant on it? | 02:31 |
| azonenberg | I cant say i'm surprised | 02:32 |
| azonenberg | There are only really two ways for a semiconductor device to fail | 02:32 |
| azonenberg | either something that belongs is in the wrong place (design error, electromigration, etc) | 02:32 |
| azonenberg | or something that doesnt belong is there | 02:32 |
| azonenberg | Have you made any progress in isolating the contamination? | 02:33 |
| B0101 | hmm, not yet i believe is something from the fab process | 02:33 |
| B0101 | *its | 02:34 |
| B0101 | ok it looks like the silicon can no longer conduct, at all | 02:34 |
| B0101 | i don't know if you know what may cause that to happen | 02:35 |
| azonenberg | Oxide growth? | 02:36 |
| azonenberg | surface contamination? | 02:36 |
| azonenberg | Post details of your fab process and i can take a look at it | 02:36 |
| azonenberg | stick it in your wiki page | 02:36 |
| B0101 | ok | 02:37 |
| B0101 | i will do it asap | 02:37 |
| azonenberg | if you are not already, you should be keeping lab notes | 02:38 |
| azonenberg | makes it much easier to go back and look at what processing was applied to a given sample | 02:39 |
| B0101 | i do keep lab notes, all of them are in my notebook | 02:39 |
| azonenberg | i see | 02:39 |
| azonenberg | Well, if you dont mind sharing please do | 02:39 |
| azonenberg | i understand if you dont want to publish everything just yet | 02:39 |
| B0101 | not everything but just important stuff | 02:40 |
| azonenberg | i see | 02:41 |
| azonenberg | Well again, post what you have on the process and i'll take a look | 02:41 |
| azonenberg | i dont know much about SQUIDs though | 02:41 |
| B0101 | out of topic: have you ever thought of silicon based nuclear reactors? | 02:43 |
| azonenberg | radioactive silicon? | 02:44 |
| B0101 | idk, but i have heard that the US is researching solid state nuclear reactor s | 02:45 |
| B0101 | idk if that may happen but heard that details are confidential | 02:48 |
| swkhan | azonenberg: i asked my professor just in case and CC'd the relevant people who could do it for you in our lab (i don't actually own / use the machine that could grow it for you) | 02:56 |
| swkhan | azonenberg: i can PM you by the end of tonight =) | 02:56 |
| swkhan | azonenberg: any special precautions you would advocate? | 02:57 |
| azonenberg | swkhan: back | 03:08 |
| swkhan | yay | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | and from what i understand, dry oxidation is pretty simple | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | Stick in furnace, heat | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | The hotter it is, the faster it grows | 03:08 |
| swkhan | there's a guy in my lab who built an ozone generator | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | 800-1200C is the usual range | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | The thicker the oxide is, the slower it grows | 03:09 |
| swkhan | and he has compressed oxygen go through a filter | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | because you get diffusion limited | 03:09 |
| swkhan | er compressed air go through an oxygen filter | 03:09 |
| swkhan | mm | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | i see | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | You dont want to use that | 03:09 |
| swkhan | what would you want to use? | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | Either air or steam | 03:09 |
| swkhan | o_O air?! | 03:09 |
| swkhan | why wouldn't you use pure oxygen? | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | Too uncontrollable i think | 03:09 |
| swkhan | hmm | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_oxidation | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | If you want it to grow faster add water vapor | 03:10 |
| azonenberg | http://www.cleanroom.byu.edu/OxideTimeCalc.phtml will calculate the time required to grow oxide of a given thickness | 03:11 |
| azonenberg | based on the native oxide thickness, the temp, crystal orientation, and wet or dry conditions | 03:11 |
| azonenberg | dry=air, wet=water vapor | 03:11 |
| azonenberg | I havent used the process myself but i understand the theory | 03:11 |
| B0101 | brb | 03:57 |
| swkhan | i wish the temperature could have been lower. i think the furnace can go up to 1100 C | 04:28 |
| azonenberg | well, do the math for whatever thickness you want to grow | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | i suggest trying for 100-200nm | 04:29 |
| swkhan | whatever thickness _you_ want me to grow for you =) | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | Lol, i assume you want to use it for something too | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | let's see, dry oxidation at 1000C on <100> | 04:30 |
| swkhan | well maybe. i haven't figured out why you would want a very thick layer of silicon dioxide if you aren't making transistors or MOS capacitors, etc. | 04:30 |
| azonenberg | will take just over three hours | 04:30 |
| azonenberg | for 100nm | 04:31 |
| azonenberg | and 8 hours for 200nm | 04:31 |
| azonenberg | 100nm is a dark red-violet and 200 is a pale yellowish | 04:32 |
| swkhan | there's a really sweet guy in my lab who cleaned a quartz tube for you just in case =) | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | lol | 04:32 |
| swkhan | oooh thin film interference | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | http://www.htelabs.com/appnotes/sio2_color_chart_thermal_silicon_dioxide.htm | 04:32 |
| swkhan | you know everything =\ | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | i tried using it for Ta2O5 but it was hard to guess because i didnt have the refractive index of the film too accurately | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | 1250A would be first order blue | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | nice and easy to see when i test HF etch rates on it | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | just over four hours by dry oxidation at 1000C | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | oh, wow | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | at 1100 its waaay faster | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | only an hour and a half for 1250A | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | four hours would get up to 2750 | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | tbh i am not currently to the point that i need any specific thickness that accurately | 04:34 |
| swkhan | we have a 3k tube furnace hooked up to a wet pump | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | i just want >100nm | 04:34 |
| swkhan | okay =) | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | wet pump, meaning you can do steam? | 04:35 |
| swkhan | i just want you to be happy =0 | 04:35 |
| swkhan | not steam, a wet pump meaning it uses oil | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | oh | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | you mean a vacuum furnace? | 04:35 |
| swkhan | yes | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | Can it run at atmospheric pressure? | 04:35 |
| swkhan | yes | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | ok, well trying to oxidize something by heat in vacuum doesnt usually go well :p | 04:35 |
| swkhan | we have leaks =\ | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | Oh, i see | 04:35 |
| swkhan | so might as well be atmosphere | 04:36 |
| swkhan | i'll keep the vacuum pump off though | 04:36 |
| swkhan | it works so-so though no research coming from it anyway | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | I see lol | 04:36 |
| swkhan | my professor gave the go ahead =D | 04:36 |
| swkhan | i'll send you the address | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | Well, anywhere over two hours at >1000C should be thick enough for my work, i just want a) a nonconductive surface i can use for experiments in metal patterning, and b) to test patterning of SiO2 for future MOS fab | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | the wafer is a 4-inch so you'll have to scribe it up | 04:37 |
| azonenberg | if you cant fit all of the pieces in the tube at once, and have time for more than one run | 04:37 |
| azonenberg | two or three thicknesses might be nice | 04:37 |
| swkhan | sure | 04:40 |
| azonenberg | This is the exact item http://www.mtixtl.com/siwafer1004diax05mm1spptypebdopedresistivities7-13ohm-cm-1-1.aspx | 04:42 |
| swkhan | omg | 04:42 |
| swkhan | it's costing you $40?! | 04:42 |
| azonenberg | MTI is my current wafer supplier of choice as most others wont touch you unless you want to buy by the boat | 04:42 |
| azonenberg | The prices are a bit higher per unit but i dont have to buy 25 | 04:43 |
| swkhan | we have extra wafers lying around | 04:43 |
| swkhan | i can do that for free for you | 04:43 |
| swkhan | i wasn't sure what you had | 04:43 |
| swkhan | (i just checked with my professor, i didn't want to offer until i knew i could) | 04:43 |
| azonenberg | If you have extras you can afford to get rid of, i'm not gonna turn down free silicon :) | 04:43 |
| azonenberg | i just dont want to be a drain on anyone's resources if they're helping me for free | 04:44 |
| swkhan | well i was basically asking you to pay me $20! | 04:44 |
| swkhan | you've helped me so much. i've been a drain on your resources =p | 04:44 |
| azonenberg | Lol, i would never pay anyone $20! - i cant afford that much | 04:44 |
| azonenberg | 2.4E18 dollars? | 04:45 |
| swkhan | well if i kept half of that wafer that's like $20 | 04:45 |
| azonenberg | thats more than even bill gates could afford | 04:45 |
| azonenberg | by a couple orders of magnitude :p | 04:45 |
| swkhan | what? | 04:45 |
| swkhan | oh lol! | 04:45 |
| azonenberg | 20 factorial dollars lol | 04:45 |
| swkhan | i seriously initially thought you were that poor | 04:45 |
| swkhan | poor guy... can't afford a few pizzas | 04:46 |
| azonenberg | Well, i am indeed running this lab on a grad student's salary | 04:46 |
| azonenberg | But its one of my few expenses other than food and rent | 04:46 |
| azonenberg | and i use such tiny amounts of supplies that stuff lasts me a long time | 04:46 |
| azonenberg | i buy one or two wafers, do a film deposition on campus | 04:46 |
| azonenberg | and use the result of that for several months of work | 04:47 |
| azonenberg | right now i have wafers (or parts thereof) that are bare Si, Si with evaporated Cu, Si with sol-gel Ta2O5, Si with evaporated Cu over Cr, and Si with Cu over Cr over Ta2O5 | 04:47 |
| azonenberg | The one thing i dont have is oxide | 04:48 |
| azonenberg | And to be perfectly honest you're welcome to that half of a wafer - i dont need it | 04:48 |
| swkhan | o_O | 04:48 |
| azonenberg | my entire work to date has been using four 2-inch wafers, most of which are no more than half consumed | 04:48 |
| azonenberg | i have no clue what i'd ever do with a whole 4-incher lol | 04:49 |
| azonenberg | buying it was a mistake, since then i've been getting 2s | 04:49 |
| swkhan | well it's a different resistivity than what we use (we use very highly doped wafers) | 04:49 |
| azonenberg | Higher than this? | 04:49 |
| swkhan | so maybe stealing a bit of yours could be worthwhile =) | 04:49 |
| swkhan | yes like 0.0005 ohm * cm | 04:49 |
| azonenberg | holy cow lol | 04:49 |
| azonenberg | do they even sell those? | 04:49 |
| swkhan | maybe it's 0.005 ohm * cm | 04:50 |
| azonenberg | i thought this was about the highest doping you could get without doing implantation yourself | 04:50 |
| swkhan | but still very small | 04:50 |
| azonenberg | MTI offers the following ranges | 04:50 |
| swkhan | i don't actually get these myself | 04:50 |
| swkhan | my professor just gets them from some industry connections he has | 04:50 |
| azonenberg | 0.01 - 0.02, 0.1 - 1, 1-10, 10-20, 0.3-0.6, 1-5 | 04:50 |
| azonenberg | actually, they do have one thats extreme | 04:50 |
| swkhan | he worked at practically every big place you can imagine | 04:50 |
| azonenberg | 0.004 - 0.006 | 04:50 |
| azonenberg | and i see | 04:51 |
| swkhan | i don't know if he pays for them | 04:51 |
| swkhan | i don't know much =( | 04:51 |
| azonenberg | Well, if you have a use for it you're welcome to half of mine | 04:51 |
| azonenberg | like i said, i could never use a whole 4-inch at the rate i'm consuming silicon | 04:51 |
| swkhan | well all right then. i'll try my best | 04:51 |
| swkhan | i'll grow and see if i can sneak in some time on our fancy SEM too | 04:51 |
| azonenberg | what woudl you do wit hthe sem - cross section? | 04:52 |
| swkhan | it costs us $55 / hour, but if i put a few down that i'll be using then it could be worth it | 04:52 |
| swkhan | yes | 04:52 |
| swkhan | i just got the cross sectional stage today | 04:52 |
| azonenberg | Ooh, nice | 04:52 |
| swkhan | it's a hitachi S4800 i think | 04:52 |
| azonenberg | dont know the exact model | 04:52 |
| azonenberg | only ever used zeiss and jeol | 04:52 |
| swkhan | ah | 04:52 |
| azonenberg | supra 55 and jsm-840 | 04:53 |
| azonenberg | the 840 is a tungsten filament, the supra is a field emitter | 04:53 |
| azonenberg | they have a jeol fesem as well, never used it (plan to at some point) | 04:53 |
| swkhan | http://www.hitachi-hta.com/products/electron-microscopes-and-focused-ion-beam/field-emission-sem/s-4800-uhr-fe-sem -> with BSE attachment and EDX attachment | 04:53 |
| azonenberg | as well as an afm and a couple of tems | 04:53 |
| azonenberg | and a dual beam sem/fib | 04:53 |
| swkhan | wow | 04:53 |
| azonenberg | the supra, fib, and afm are in the cleanroom | 04:53 |
| swkhan | i just got trained on the TEM... it's so coooool | 04:54 |
| swkhan | no cleanrooms here =( | 04:54 |
| azonenberg | both jeols and the TEMs are in the mat sci department's non-clean microscopy lab | 04:54 |
| swkhan | just one for photolithography | 04:54 |
| azonenberg | i linked you to rpi's cleanroom, right? | 04:54 |
| swkhan | FIB and DRIE soon | 04:54 |
| azonenberg | ooh, nice | 04:54 |
| swkhan | i think a while ago | 04:54 |
| Action: azonenberg wants to play on a fib | 04:54 | |
| azonenberg | too bad they're so expensive lol | 04:54 |
| swkhan | i have a very good relationship with the lab manager here | 04:54 |
| swkhan | he lets me use my samples when he's calibrating a new machine | 04:55 |
| azonenberg | me too (mat sci at least, the cleanroom guys are a little less flexible) | 04:55 |
| azonenberg | and nice lol | 04:55 |
| swkhan | typically the machines are totally configured so i don't pay anything =) | 04:55 |
| swkhan | and get a professional to give me nice pictures | 04:55 |
| swkhan | plus i get to learn some physics and stuff | 04:55 |
| azonenberg | lol | 04:55 |
| swkhan | you know, you should seriously apply for an NSF fellowship if you haven't already won that | 04:55 |
| swkhan | you are so overqualified for it | 04:55 |
| swkhan | i know i would give you one if i could | 04:56 |
| swkhan | i would give you mine if i won one | 04:56 |
| swkhan | or at least half ;) | 04:56 |
| azonenberg | Right now i'm on a teaching assistantship but my advisor is asking me to work with him on a proposal for an NSF project for the coming year | 04:56 |
| azonenberg | i may be interning at lincoln labs this summer as well | 04:56 |
| swkhan | you know about NSF fellowships right? | 04:56 |
| swkhan | whoa lincoln =) | 04:56 |
| azonenberg | the recruiter is an alum who i know well and actually had as a student while TAing once | 04:56 |
| azonenberg | we played together in a wargame earlier today | 04:56 |
| swkhan | wargame? | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | he was visiting campus for the career fair and dropped in to pwn for a few minuts | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | hacker club | 04:57 |
| swkhan | pwn? | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | remember, i'm technically comp sci lol | 04:57 |
| swkhan | hacker club lol | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | throw a bunch of teams of hackers on a network | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | give them some servers | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | and watch the fun | 04:57 |
| swkhan | whoa | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | basically | 04:57 |
| azonenberg | sometimes its evry team vs the judges running the servers | 04:58 |
| azonenberg | someteims its a free-for-all, keep your boxes up while hitting the opposing teams | 04:58 |
| azonenberg | and, rarely, defense only | 04:58 |
| azonenberg | In any case, the guy wants me to work for him and apparently convinced my advisor to let him have me and my officemate for the summer lol | 04:58 |
| azonenberg | thats the thing about my situation - i'm interested in so many skills that i could work almost anywhere | 05:00 |
| azonenberg | mems/ic stuff is just one of my few dozen interests | 05:01 |
| azonenberg | swkhan: also - on the topic of silicon usage | 05:05 |
| swkhan | wow. you're inspirational =) | 05:05 |
| azonenberg | http://i.imgur.com/1iaq6.jpg | 05:05 |
| azonenberg | is the sum total of my entire fab research to date lol | 05:05 |
| swkhan | omg pretty | 05:06 |
| azonenberg | F8-G1 are on a SEM pin mount kept elsewhere | 05:06 |
| azonenberg | J4-10 are open | 05:06 |
| azonenberg | this is box number 5 (1-4 are used for other stuff not related to fab work) | 05:06 |
| azonenberg | so once i make chip 5J10 i'll have to start using 3-part numbers | 05:06 |
| azonenberg | box, row, column | 05:06 |
| azonenberg | and go on to 6A1 | 05:06 |
| swkhan | i've done way more than that because each run had a cross configuration with one in the center. so 5 pieces a run. not to mention i'm a bad researcher. i do a lot more runs than i probably need to =( | 05:07 |
| azonenberg | i see | 05:07 |
| azonenberg | In my case its partly due to lack of time - i can only get in a run every couple of evenings since i'm busy with class | 05:07 |
| azonenberg | i have to do lithography after dark since i dont have a darkroom | 05:08 |
| swkhan | lol | 05:08 |
| azonenberg | (though i can do etching and depositions in daylight) | 05:08 |
| swkhan | that's so adorable | 05:08 |
| azonenberg | So basically all of my litho is done on evenings when i don't have homework due the next day | 05:08 |
| azonenberg | and the number of dies i do depends on how early my first class the next day is :p | 05:09 |
| azonenberg | adorable? what is lol | 05:10 |
| swkhan | that you do lithography at night | 05:10 |
| azonenberg | lol | 05:10 |
| azonenberg | what else am i going to do? | 05:10 |
| azonenberg | go out drinking with girls? | 05:10 |
| azonenberg | i'm about as interested in drinking ethanol as methanol or acetone | 05:11 |
| azonenberg | and i go to an engineering school | 05:11 |
| swkhan | lol! | 05:11 |
| azonenberg | You saw my 21st birthday pic, right? | 05:11 |
| swkhan | no | 05:11 |
| azonenberg | omg lol *finds link* | 05:11 |
| azonenberg | https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/292037_2309167690240_1280772249_2764502_5609467_n.jpg | 05:12 |
| azonenberg | i wanted to make fun of people who get trashed the second they're old enough to walk into a bar | 05:12 |
| swkhan | lol | 05:12 |
| azonenberg | but still celebrate my birthday with a bottle of alcohol | 05:12 |
| azonenberg | lol | 05:12 |
| swkhan | omg lol! | 05:12 |
| azonenberg | Just not in the way "normal" people do lol | 05:12 |
| azonenberg | i think it served its purpose well lol | 05:13 |
| azonenberg | one of the best spoofs i've ever done | 05:13 |
| swkhan | i don't drink either. why don't you drink? | 05:14 |
| azonenberg | i like my brain cells the way they are tyvm | 05:14 |
| azonenberg | and see no reason to alter their behavior | 05:14 |
| swkhan | i'm going to the wrong school =\ | 05:14 |
| azonenberg | lol why do you say that? | 05:14 |
| azonenberg | there are plenty of frat/drinking types here | 05:15 |
| swkhan | i think a lot of schools people all think like "normal" people | 05:15 |
| swkhan | oh nvm then | 05:15 |
| azonenberg | But the thing is, they arent everyone | 05:15 |
| azonenberg | even at MIT you find party animals if you look hard enough | 05:15 |
| azonenberg | the distinguishing factor is the percentage | 05:15 |
| swkhan | i knew one girl who went to MIT who was a big party animal | 05:15 |
| swkhan | and seemingly every other girl from her robotics team went to MIT | 05:16 |
| azonenberg | lol | 05:16 |
| azonenberg | But i just seem to break the mold in general | 05:17 |
| azonenberg | i graduated college before i was old enough to celebrate the occasion with a beer (even if i had any interest in doing so) | 05:17 |
| azonenberg | i was a PhD student for a week before getting my bachelor's degree | 05:17 |
| swkhan | lol | 05:19 |
| azonenberg | that last was a funny store | 05:19 |
| azonenberg | story* | 05:19 |
| azonenberg | to get RA funding for the summer i had to be considered enrolled in the grad program effective summer | 05:20 |
| azonenberg | summer semester started two weeks after finals week for the spring | 05:20 |
| azonenberg | but a week before commencement | 05:20 |
| azonenberg | the registrar didnt officialyl approve my undergrad degree application until thursday of that week | 05:20 |
| azonenberg | from monday to thursday i was in the system as a phd student but did not have a BS | 05:20 |
| swkhan | lol i see | 05:21 |
| swkhan | i had something similar happen to me actually but it didn't involve the registrar being nice to me (when have they ever been nice =\ ) | 05:21 |
| swkhan | my professor had to work extra hard to push paperwork to make me be considered a student | 05:22 |
| swkhan | i wasn't registered in the summer | 05:22 |
| azonenberg | ah fun | 05:22 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, that's not that bad :P | 06:06 |
| bart416 | Cause of their efficiency *cough* they managed to forget to sign up all PhD students | 06:07 |
| bart416 | So they decided to just push all the paper to one of the colleges in the assocation and get them signed up there for the meanwhile | 06:07 |
| bart416 | And then afterwards have them fill out a large stack of paper to get them transfered | 06:07 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, I'm going to do something sort of insane | 18:25 |
| bart416 | See query xD | 18:25 |
| --- Sun Oct 2 2011 | 00:00 | |
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