#homecmos IRC log for Sunday, 2011-09-18

B0101hi azonenberg02:59
azonenbergberndj: lol02:59
azonenbergAnd when you hit e-beam...02:59
azonenbergYou think DNQ is home synthesizable?02:59
azonenbergI am not enough of a chemist to be willing to attempt it03:00
azonenbergIf nothing else because i dont know how to mix with the resin in the proper proportion etc03:00
azonenbergNot to mention you have to do the entire synthesis in the dark :P03:00
azonenbergAnd i know zilch about o-chem03:00
B0101guess what? Someone really called the cops03:03
azonenberghow'd it turn out03:04
B0101and i have a license, so nothing wrong with my experiments03:04
B0101how paranoid can people get anyway?03:05
azonenbergVery, apparently03:05
B0101i hope that nobody is going to write a letter to the MP03:06
B0101here, people call police --> does not work --> letter to MP03:06
azonenbergAnd what can they do if you arent breaking any laws?03:06
B0101but they have pretty weird suggestions03:07
B0101there was a case where someone was cooking curry, neighbors didn't like it --> write to MP03:07
azonenbergAnd the result was?03:08
B0101MP says: Cook your curry only when your neighbors are not around03:08
B0101the neighbors are from china03:08
B0101so i would say: racism03:09
azonenbergyou are?03:09
Action: azonenberg has no idea of your ethnic background :p03:09
B0101I am of no race03:09
B0101I am happy with anyone03:09
B0101does not matter if you're muslim, indian, chinese, whatever03:10
B0101we're still human...03:10
azonenbergToo bad there aren't more people like that :p03:10
azonenbergjust imagine how nice it'd be if the world was run by scientists and engineers03:11
azonenberginstead of politicians and, in some areas, religious zealots03:11
B0101i believe it would be a better world03:12
Action: B0101 can no longer stand political idiots03:13
azonenbergI've abstained in every election since i became elegible to vote03:13
azonenbergBecause i disliked all candidates equally03:14
azonenbergand could not in good conscience vote for any of them :p03:14
B0101here in singapore, voting is compulsory03:14
azonenbergIn such a situation i'd probably vote for the candidate with the least chance of winning03:15
azonenbergjust so that when one of the other guys wins and screws things up even more03:15
azonenbergi have the satisfaction of knowing i didnt vote for him03:15
B0101but, here, if you don't vote, your name will be canceled off the voters list03:15
B0101and you are not allowed to vote anymore03:16
azonenbergYeah - I'd still want the option if i ever found someone who was worth voting for03:16
azonenbergBut in the majority of cases, all of the candidates have the same fatal flaw03:16
azonenbergThey're all politicians03:16
B0101they claim to do things for the people, but when they get elected, they screw up everything03:17
B0101but here...03:17
B0101the same people are being voted for every election03:18
B0101many people are aware that my government is failing in executing its duties03:18
azonenberglike i said, there's a reason i stay out of politics as best i can03:18
B0101how much does a bus fare cost over there?03:19
azonenbergNo matter how incompetent your government is, the people still need science done03:19
azonenbergHmm, its been a while since i actually paid for one03:19
azonenbergmy tuition includes a free pass for the local routes03:19
azonenbergand i rarely travel farther than that03:19
azonenberggets me to the grocery store and back03:20
B0101here... the bus fare costs 1.70+03:20
azonenbergor into the city and back03:20
azonenbergor in your local currency03:20
azonenbergMy guess is, it might actually be more for some of the routes here03:21
azonenbergbut it depends on how far03:21
azonenbergDepends on whose conversion table you use i guess lol03:21
azonenbergthat last significant digit changes all the time03:21
B0101last time, the fares were measured by time03:21
azonenberglike i said i have no idea as i havent paid for a bus fare in months03:21
azonenbergsince i dont really travel too far from school unless i'm with a group and usually someone in the group has a car03:22
B0101life is hell here though03:24
B0101thats why many people have left singapore03:24
B0101for good03:24
B0101for men, if they haven't completed compulsory military service, they cannot give up their citizenship03:25
B0101even if the guy have lived in US for his whole life, he still has to go back03:26
B0101enough about government03:27
azonenbergLol indeed03:28
wolfspraulB0101: someone called the police because you were doing some chemical work at home?03:31
wolfspraulhow did they find out about your experiments?03:31
B0101wolfspraul: i know i was doing a chemical experiment but how they found out? i have no idea03:33
wolfspraulmaybe you should think about that03:35
azonenbergwolfspraul: for a law abiding home scientist, hiding is usually the last thing on your mind03:35
wolfspraulwho called anyway? your neighbors?03:35
wolfspraulah well, let's call it 'environmental awareness' :-)03:36
wolfspraulif you home is bugged, you would probably at least like to know, right?03:36
B0101my neighbor called the cops03:36
wolfspraulif your sources are keeping track of your purchases and reporting them somewhere, you would like to know03:36
azonenbergwolfspraul: oh, lol03:36
azonenbergThat's what you're talking about03:36
wolfspraulI live in Beijing, I have no illusions03:36
B0101but my sources? no'03:36
wolfsprauland he lives in Singapore03:36
wolfspraulthat's what we call a police state03:37
wolfspraulbut how did the neighbors find out?03:37
azonenbergWell, they claim the neighbor called them03:37
azonenbergfirst of all03:37
azonenbergMight be covering their real source03:37
azonenbergif you want to be paranoid03:38
wolfspraulme being an englightened westerner, I would directly talk to my neighbors03:38
wolfspraulsee what's going on03:38
azonenbergAnd, having been on the wrong end of US gov't surveillance, i have few illusions either :P03:38
azonenbergThough I do not think my apartment is bugged03:38
wolfspraulB0101: most suppliers of chemical goods are nowadays reporting here and there03:38
wolfspraulI think that's a given03:38
wolfspraulbut how do the neighbors know about your experiment? interesting03:39
B0101time to find out03:39
wolfspraulme in Beijing, I watch for the smallest 'unusual' thing03:39
wolfspraulin China you learn this: there is nothing unusual03:39
wolfspraulcoincidence? ha ha03:39
wolfspraulyou bet03:39
B0101be right back03:39
azonenbergTo quote an acquaintance of mine... "I'm a lawyer. They pay me not to believe in coincidences."03:39
azonenbergI won't call him a friend, we didnt get along well03:40
azonenbergbut i do have to give him credit for that lol03:40
azonenbergsummed it up quice nicely03:40
wolfspraulI would order as much as possible under aliases03:41
wolfspraulI think that's just fair03:41
B0101My neighbor said that he suspected me03:41
wolfspraulbalance it out03:41
azonenbergIt depends a lot on the situation03:41
azonenbergthe country you're in, general political climate03:41
wolfspraulthey do data mining, I use aliases03:41
wolfspraulit just restores the natural equilibrium03:42
azonenbergin the US people are somewhat paranoid but it isnt what i'd call a police state (not yet at least)03:42
B0101he saw me bring in equipment into my house (dang!)03:42
azonenbergit's such that the looking-bad aspect of trying to hide03:42
azonenbergwould do more harm than the possible benefit03:42
azonenbergSomewhere else? You have to judge for yourself03:42
wolfspraultrying to hide makes you look good in my book03:42
azonenbergAround here, it would make you look like a criminal03:43
wolfspraulthe bad guys are in disguise, they have the best, and wrong, trained cover story03:43
wolfspraulyeah well03:43
wolfspraulthat way the US will go deeper into police state, slowly :-)03:43
wolfspraulunless more people learn that it's the worst guys that look best03:43
wolfspraulbecause it's their profession03:43
wolfspraulI live in China03:43
B0101wolfspraul: My suppliers will never report anything03:44
azonenbergB0101: how sure are you about that03:44
wolfspraulyes, I don't believe that03:44
wolfsprauland in Singapore to boot03:44
wolfsprauldo you order anonymously?03:44
wolfspraulif that is even possible in Singapore03:44
azonenbergOne of my biggest suppliers is a US gov't contractor from what i understand03:44
azonenbergThey impose quantity limits on purchases of strong oxidizers by private individuals etc03:45
azonenbergAnd i'm sure if i ordered specific combinations of materials it'd get reported03:45
B0101everytime I buy chemicals, its always over the phone03:45
azonenbergOn the other hand, i also doubt they have a database of every single person who bought a liter of technical grade HCl03:45
wolfspraulthey mine everything they can get their hands on03:46
wolfsprauland it's stored indefinitely, I think we can safely assume that03:46
B0101since my company does use chemicals, nothing wrong about that03:46
azonenbergOh, if its collected it definitely is03:46
wolfspraulin the US in particular the 'national security' machine is already mostly out of control03:46
azonenbergThe NSA's data warehouses are probably in the exabytes by now03:46
azonenbergif not more03:46
wolfspraulthey do whatever they want, justify their own need, grow happily, etc.03:46
wolfspraullet's see where it goes03:47
B0101I wonder what people can do with Quantum computers...03:47
wolfspraulif you say anything against this 'security' machine you are deemed suspicious already03:47
azonenbergsecurity != security theater03:47
wolfspraulbut we need the (old) US!03:47
wolfspraul"if you are a good guy you have nothing to hide" ha ha03:49
wolfspraulhow out of that with reality that is03:49
wolfspraullike from evil's playbook03:49
B0101wolfspraul: i agree about your security machine statement03:49
azonenbergwolfspraul: I have reasonable precautions re encryption of sensitive stuff03:49
wolfspraulthe opposite is true03:49
azonenbergAll of my long term archival storage is compartmentalized by project03:49
azonenbergand i never mount them unless i need to03:50
wolfspraulif it were that simple, lies could grow indefinitely03:50
azonenbergso even if i'm being keylogged i'm safe03:50
B0101Encryption may soon be useless though03:50
wolfspraulso this stupid trick must be debunked first03:50
azonenbergBut, tbh, i am not that worried about national intelligence03:50
wolfspraulthe more you hide, the more likely you are a good guy03:50
azonenbergby the time they're interested in me, i'll probably be working for them or someone on their level03:50
azonenbergi am far more worried about the paranoid neighbor03:51
azonenbergwho can make my life a hassle now and doesn't have to do any data mining to make that happen03:51
wolfspraulit's the worst case that try to tell us we shouldn't hide anything03:51
wolfspraulremind to self: use more aliases more consistently :-)03:51
wolfspraulrotate them more often03:52
wolfspraulB0101: keep an eye on your neighbors :-)03:52
wolfspraulif something suspicious happens, they would probably want you to call the police...03:52
wolfsprauljust in case03:52
B0101Never buy a lot of paint here. you'd know why03:54
Action: azonenberg wonders what illegal purposes paint can be used for03:55
azonenbergi know about (and avoid buying) several common drug / explosive precursors but paint isn't on any of the lists i'm aware of03:55
azonenbergThats another thing that helps03:55
azonenbergNot buying items on watchlists03:55
B0101in Singapore, loan sharks splash paint on houses (if the owner didn't pay up)03:56
B0101and therefore, if your neighbors see you buy a lot of paint, watch out03:57
Action: B0101 wonders if ISP is logging her internet use 04:09
azonenbergB0101: Don't wonder that04:09
azonenbergWonder how much they're logging04:09
azonenbergfull packets? keywords? just basic stats like average bytes per second plus some search queries?04:09
B0101i have no idea what they're logging (if they are logging)04:10
B0101I hope they aren't though04:11
wolfsprauloh of course they are04:11
wolfspraulin fact most likely multiple entities are logging, whatever they can get their hands on04:11
Action: B0101 wonders where has privacy gone to04:12
wolfspraulI don't think I'm paranoid, just realistic about internet traffic in 201104:12
azonenbergOk, its possible your ISP isnt logging04:12
azonenbergBut they are cooperating with the gov't logging04:12
wolfspraulwe need to use more ssl (no matter how broken it is), more tunnels, more anonymizers/tor etc.04:12
azonenbergI run SSL over basically everything that allows it04:12
wolfspraulI don't think you can make that distinction anymore04:12
azonenbergbut i trust it only to prevent casual snooping04:12
azonenbergwolfspraul: the isp isnt logging for their own purposes04:13
azonenbergi mean04:13
wolfspraulthere's too many backdoors here and there04:13
wolfspraulafter 9/11, it was still a big deal that the 'feds' wanted access to the 'server rooms' at the big telcos04:13
wolfspraulI think nowadays the only question is how big the teams are that are working on yet smarter 'apis' for the various 'agencies'04:13
wolfspraulin China they are getting to the point of doing automated live tracking of certain keywords spoken over the phone04:14
wolfspraulfor SMS that already works for many years04:14
wolfspraulbut now they are upgrading, and can do it even for audio :-)04:14
azonenbergwolfspraul: The only thing i use phone for, re sensitive data04:14
azonenbergis to exchange key fingerprints04:15
wolfspraulso if I speak certain keywords, bang, the line drops04:15
azonenbergafetr authenticating the other party by voice and the codeword of the day/hour :P04:15
wolfspraulthe capacity is only enough for part of all numbers now, but moore's law should help with that04:15
azonenbergAnd i dont think they drop calls here04:15
azonenbergjust flag them for monitoring04:15
wolfsprauloh I play with the system :-)04:15
wolfspraulI send the dirty words, only to watch the sms disappearing in nirvana04:15
azonenbergLet me put it this way, even when i know for a fact that They were watching04:16
azonenbergas in, a conversation between me and a friend was being MITMed in real time04:16
wolfspraulbut I also don't care about 'canceled' sim cards, since I swap my sim cards often04:16
azonenbergand messages were being received the other guy hadnt sent04:16
azonenbergthe communication never got dropped04:16
wolfspraulyes that is happening in CHina, right now only for numbers on (growing) watchlists04:16
wolfspraulfor sms it's here for years, for audio growing now04:16
wolfspraulthat's in addition to the archiving and voice fingerprinting, of course04:17
azonenbergWell, thats the difference between our countries04:17
azonenbergchina wants to suppress communication of certain subjects04:17
azonenbergin the usa, they just want to know you're talking about it04:17
wolfspraulI wouldn't be surprised if they archive _all_ mobile phone data04:18
wolfspraulI mean, I would04:18
azonenbergYou mean, full voice logs plus sms?04:18
wolfspraulstorage capacity is cheap, and you never know what you can mine out of it later04:18
azonenbergand endpoint data?04:18
wolfsprauland there is zero judicial oversight, no downside essentially04:19
B0101I want to have as much privacy as possible, but i think that may not be possible now... :(04:19
wolfspraulyes sure, everything04:19
wolfspraulwhy not04:19
azonenberghere in the usa my guess is that they have sms logs04:19
azonenbergvoice ID data (who called what number when)04:19
azonenbergand maybe TTS transcriptions04:19
wolfspraulit's just a technical problem, amount of data etc.04:19
wolfspraulbut that means - more budget for my unit :-)04:19
wolfspraulthat's all04:19
wolfspraulI would do it.04:19
azonenbergi dont know if they have full audio04:19
wolfspraulin China I would be surprised if they didn't04:19
azonenbergif i had reliable enough speech recognition i'd just do transcripts04:19
wolfspraulonly a technical problem04:19
azonenbergBut yes04:19
azonenbergit would not surprise me at all04:20
wolfspraulthey will start with watchlists, then grow as the technical abilities get better04:20
azonenbergI just dont think the usa is going to go to the point that china is, because the gov't has differnet goals04:21
azonenbergthdey dont want to prevent people from talking about stuff04:21
azonenbergthey want information04:21
azonenbergif they cut you off, they dont know what you're about to do04:22
wolfspraullet's see. gsm is nicely compressed, 1KB/sec roughly?04:22
wolfspraulso in 1hr that's 3.6 MB04:22
azonenbergno idea, but yes its def feasible to log04:22
wolfspraulthe cutoff is to avoid 'waves' going through the system, like a large group coordinating for some event/demonstration04:22
wolfspraulthat needs to happen in real-time04:22
wolfsprauljust cutoff keywords04:22
wolfspraulwatch the chatting, if some keywords suddenly grow - block them04:23
wolfspraulthat's like a first-line response04:23
wolfspraulthen you can do some mining to find the sources and quietly track down and labor-camp those people later04:23
azonenbergi see04:23
wolfspraulonly take out the top 5-10 troublemakers, and weeks later04:24
azonenbergMakes sense04:24
wolfspraulso wait, 3.6 MB / hour04:24
wolfspraullet's say 2 hours / day04:24
wolfspraul7 MB04:24
azonenbergi'd say 2004:24
azonenbergbe conservative04:24
wolfspraul1 million phones = 7 terabytes?04:24
azonenbergdouble that, say 16TB04:24
wolfspraul500 million phones would be?04:24
azonenbergyou can build a server with that much capacity for $400004:25
wolfspraulwhat comes after tera?04:25
azonenbergif not less04:25
azonenberga PB per day is a little much i think04:25
azonenbergbut transcripts of calls?04:25
wolfspraul16tb*500=8000tb=8 petabytes04:25
azonenbergfrom automated speech recognition04:25
azonenbergplus metadata of who called who when for how long04:25
wolfspraulwho knows there are lots of dialects etc.04:25
wolfspraulbetter be safe than sorry04:25
azonenbergIn china it'd be harder04:25
wolfspraulplus remember: bigger technical problem = more budget for my unit/department04:26
azonenbergOr, record anything you cant make text of04:26
wolfspraulnah, just everything04:26
azonenbergwith >95% probability04:26
wolfspraul8 petabytes per day04:26
wolfspraul250 petabytes per month04:26
wolfspraul3000 petabytes per year04:26
azonenbergThats a lot04:26
wolfspraulwhat budget is needed for that?04:26
wolfspraul100 million USD / year ?04:26
azonenbergThree exabytes per year04:26
azonenbergLet's see04:26
azonenberg3000 PB = 3 million TB04:26
azonenberg1TB = say $20 at bulk prices04:27
azonenbergplus infrastructure for hosting etc04:27
azonenbergSo hmm04:27
azonenbergfor $100M/yr you probably could04:27
azonenbergit might actually be feasible04:27
wolfspraulyou think it's not happening?04:27
wolfspraulh aha04:27
wolfspraulthat's almost too small for the military04:27
azonenbergI had no doubt that metadata was being logged04:27
wolfspraulthey need multi-billion USD projects04:27
azonenbergalong with probably text transcripts04:27
azonenbergi just wasnt sure if full audio was feasible04:27
wolfspraulbut sure they will do this too04:27
wolfspraulplus it gets expensive with all the corruption etc.04:27
azonenbergbut now that you've run the numbers? i have little doubt NSA is doing it already04:27
wolfspraulso price * 1004:28
wolfspraul1 billion USD / year04:28
wolfspraulChina spent ca. 100 billion USD last year on 'harmonious society'04:28
wolfspraulwhich is their codeword for all sorts of suppressive activities04:28
wolfspraulif 1 billion logs all phone traffic, it will be done04:29
wolfsprauland the price is even coming down each year :-)04:29
B0101I think the size of those logs would have reached the zettabyte range04:29
azonenbergWell, email and other stuff is almost certainly being logged04:29
azonenbergprobably not full packet logs of internet traffic04:29
azonenbergbut full content of voip and im traffic04:29
azonenbergsearch history04:29
azonenbergmaybe list of URLs visited, at least from pages containing flagged keywords04:29
wolfspraulyes not all internet traffic04:29
wolfspraulbut the phone networks are 100% controlled04:30
wolfspraulin China for sure04:30
wolfspraulit's just a technical problem04:30
B0101azonenberg: remember that i told you that i will be fabricating josephson junctions?04:32
azonenbergWhat supplies are necessary for that>04:32
azonenbergi know little about the physics04:33
azonenbergI do suggest that you start at macroscale and not try doing lithography AND a new device simultaneously04:33
azonenbergif you are going to try doing microscale, get lithography debugged first04:33
azonenbergWhich i am still working on :P04:33
B0101If i manage to fabricate that, I will use them to do encryption way better than our current technology04:34
azonenbergHow so04:34
B0101they can be used as Qubits for a quantum computer. so,04:34
B0101i can use them to encrypt data using states of atoms (quantum computers use atoms)04:35
azonenbergHome quantum computing research04:35
azonenbergi like it04:35
B0101got the idea from my younger brother04:36
B0101He told me about these04:36
azonenbergOne thing is for sure04:36
azonenbergThere is going to be some interesting research coming out of this group in the next few yers04:36
azonenbergOn that note... going to head out to the living room and play with immersion lithography and double patterning (not simultaneously)04:37
azonenbergbe back in an hour or so with results, hopefully04:37
B0101ok, see you later04:37
CIA-67homecmos r123 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Merging old lab notes05:00
CIA-67homecmos r124 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Today's lab notes05:45
bart416azonenberg, somebody beat you to it!13:09
azonenbergbart416: there have been quite a few16:01
bart416Yeah, but this time it was an instructables idiot :(16:02
azonenbergThe ones in the game are 58 inches high? o_O16:03
azonenbergThat's big16:03
azonenbergMine is going to be ~36" i think tooo16:03
azonenbergAlso, i dont think his shoots16:04
azonenbergThe biggest feature of mine is that it will have proper machine-vision based target tracking (not just a simple motion detector)16:04
azonenbergand shoot rubber bands at them16:04
bart416Have you made a chain rubber band launcher?16:05
azonenbergI have a fully automatic one in progress16:05
azonenberghoping for ~600 RPM rate of fire16:05
azonenbergand 10-20 shot ammo capacity16:05
bart416I've always found the issue with rubber bands to be feeding the "ammunition"16:09
azonenbergI have a firing mechanism worked out already16:10
azonenbergjust have to work out some detalis like the slopes of the ratchets and the exact angle/position of each solenoid16:10
bart416Yeah, that's a simple firing system16:11
bart416the issue is feeding the ammunition though16:11
azonenbergYou load it all in advance16:11
azonenbergThats the only feasible way16:11
azonenbergBut if you have two of them and 10-20 shots per launcher16:12
azonenbergand the thing fires in 2-5 round bursts16:12
azonenbergthat'd last a while16:12
azonenbergOh, and mine will have an accelerometer16:12
azonenbergso it'll freak out appropriately when knocked over16:12
azonenbergshooting everywhere and a suitable sound bite16:13
azonenberg"No hard feelings"16:13
bart416meh, loading in advance is meh16:25
bart416I want to be able to throw 100 rubber bands over a rod16:25
bart416and get it to launch all of them :P16:25
azonenbergWould be nice16:25
azonenbergif you design an actuation system that can do it, i'll write the aiming software :P16:26
berndjazonenberg, while you're working alone in your lab, remember to occasionally randomly say aloud, "I know you're listening"  (xkcd reference)16:50
berndjand i think you guys are living in the wrong country!16:50
berndjnobody could care less about what experiments you do at home.  well if it really is a meth lab and the police have other reasons to visit you, you might have a problem16:51
azonenbergIf you have a meth lab at home you have problems already :p16:52
azonenbergLike rival dealers16:52
azonenbergto say the least16:52
berndjmetadata is certainly logged; how do you think you get billed for your calls?  also, police have been catching crooks for years with call metadata.  logged at telco of course; but big brother can get at that17:04
azonenbergThe only question is, how much more17:05
azonenbergour consensus is, quite a bit :p17:05
berndjand i think one should make it a habit, and proselytize this habit, of using "suspicious" words in random harmless conversations17:05
berndji think josephson junctions weakly imply microscale - if your loop is too big you won't see the flux quantization17:07
azonenbergI dont know enouhg about the physics'17:07
berndjok i'm caught up now17:08
azonenbergAnd i'm doing homework lol17:09
azonenbergmachine vision ftw17:09
berndji don't feel qualified to have an opinion on complete call logging in your locales, but i expext it's somewhat unlikely in ZA17:09
azonenbergWhile also trying to make room in my schedule to grade homework for the two classes i'm TAing (computer organization and crypto 1)17:09
azonenbergand if i'm lucky even get some work done on my research17:10
berndjsurveillance with (?) warrant during an investigation, sure, but not all-logging-all-the-time17:10
azonenbergI expect its unlikely in the USA but i am nearly certain they have keyword triggers that initiate a speech-recognition based transcript17:10
azonenbergAs well as full logging during investigations17:11
berndjall below the board of course17:12
berndjblack rooms or what's the jargon?17:12
azonenbergOf course17:13
azonenbergYou dont go out and advertise it, the people will revolt17:13
azonenbergyou do it slowly17:13
azonenbergit gradually becomes common knowledge and people learn to accept it17:13
azonenbergbefore long its too late17:13
berndj"for security reasons" [weasel words]17:13
azonenbergand you're living in modern China17:13
berndjthere should be some counter-spying17:14
azonenbergThe EFF has some nice info on that17:14
berndji wonder if one can build an interferometer to spy on government offices - red dot on window style17:15
azonenbergI know for a fact that serious intel folks have air-gapped windows etc for that reason17:15
azonenbergand white noise generators17:15
azonenbergAlso, red dots are so 1980s17:15
azonenbergeveryone doing it these days uses IR17:15
azonenbergeasy to detect electronically or with night vision but at least it wont show up in a casual investigation17:16
berndjdon't want visible spots17:16
azonenbergIR you have to look for17:16
azonenbergnot that its hard to find17:16
azonenbergBut visible can draw your attention and tip your target off17:16
azonenbergAssuming he's not [A-Z]{3} in which case he already knows people want to watch :P17:16
berndjyeah, you have to suspect it before you can find it17:16
berndjanyway my idea is rather to spy on *politicians* than on the NSA itself17:19
berndjto give them a taste of their own medicine17:19
azonenbergI saw that in a movie somewhere17:19
azonenbergSomeone was being spied on by a government conspiracy17:20
azonenbergthey took all of the surveillance devices and moved them to the office of the senator who ordered the investigation17:20
azonenbergand made at least some of them obvious enough to tip the guy off17:20
azonenbergthen his team combed the place and found hundreds of cameras, audio bugs, etc17:20
berndjplot fragment looks familiar17:21
berndjoh, and yes, DNQ looked semi accessible, if you can get HNO3 and H2SO417:22
azonenbergThose are easily obtainable17:22
azonenbergBut i dont trust my ochem knowledge that far17:22
azonenbergI'm not a chemist17:23
azonenbergi'm a computer scientist dabbling in EE :P17:23
berndjthe biggest problem is probably getting the reaction yield you need17:24
azonenbergLike i said, i woudlnt even attempt it17:24
azonenbergBut if someone sends me a batch of homemade photoresist i will gladly test it :P17:24
berndjheh. i'm cursed with a bootstrap-everything-from-stone-age-materials mentality17:24
berndjyeah, if you want DNQ in 2011, i'd certainly say just buy it17:25
azonenbergno, i'd buy photoresist :P17:25
berndj(if only i knew where to get it locally, prefer to avoid having to import)17:25
azonenbergcomplete with resin and solvent17:25
azonenbergwhere do you live again - ZA?17:25
berndjyes, those ratios are also important, but i think that's minor if you've already made DNQ in your kitchen sink!17:25
azonenbergLol true17:26
berndjyes, ZA - cape town in particular17:26
azonenbergHmm, i dont know if there is much ic work going on down there17:26
berndjnot that it's impossible to buy stuff from china, but i'd rather just touch a bottle of solution before i buy it17:26
azonenbergi know there are fabs all over western europe and the far east17:26
azonenbergAnd nobody sells photoresist reatil17:26
azonenbergI bought mine from a company halfway across the state mail order17:26
berndjwe *had* a fab, but i called them the other day to ask about their MPW service, but the fabbing now happens in china :(17:27
azonenbergwho rebottled it from a large company17:27
berndjwe used to have a whole lot of high-tech stuff, it was part of apartheid sanctions-busting17:27
azonenbergthe big companies like AZ wont sell anything less than a few gallons or *maybe* a liter17:27
azonenbergi bought eight ounces of shipley SP24 a year ago17:27
azonenbergfrom the reseller17:27
azonenbergthey sold down to two17:28
berndjwhat sort of price does it go for?17:28
azonenbergand in retrospect i should have gotten two :p17:28
azonenbergi havnet used much17:28
azonenbergprices in USD17:28
berndjan ouce being 30-odd grams?17:28
azonenbergfluid ounces17:28
azonenberg2 oz = 59 ml17:28
azonenbergso my 8-oz bottle is 236 ml17:29
azonenbergi've used maybe 50 or 100 over the last year17:29
azonenbergif not less17:29
azonenbergthe bottle is around half full but it wasnt full to start17:29
berndjand this stuff is useable also for PCBs?17:29
azonenbergIt is marketed for use on pcbs17:29
azonenberg20um resolution is way more than its made for lol17:29
berndjoh, but it happens to work also on silicon?17:29
azonenbergIt also forms a much thicker coating than conventional IC resists17:30
azonenbergso i dilute 50% with acetone17:30
azonenbergto reduce viscosity and form a thinner layer17:30
berndjgood point17:30
azonenbergneedless to say this also increases yield17:30
azonenbergin terms of cm^2 / ml17:30
berndjand you use only a drop at a time?  although you cover a far smaller area too17:30
azonenbergI have a 30ml amber glass bottle17:30
azonenberghalf full of 50% SP24 in acetone17:30
azonenbergthat i mixed up begining of summer17:30
azonenbergi've been using a drop per die, which is overkill (maybe 80% wastage, if not more)17:31
bart416That nitrogen group on DNQ is hard to do I think17:31
azonenbergAnd i still am not going through it at any appreciable rate17:31
berndjpart of my anti-import mentality is that it's non-trivial to send money overseas sans credit card.  we still have exchange controls :(17:31
azonenbergbart416: My point is that except in extenuating circumstances, you are probably better off buying photoresist17:32
azonenbergsince its cheap - a 2-ounce bottle that will last you a year17:32
azonenbergcosts about as much as one blank 2-inch wafer17:32
bart416It'd be cheaper to make though :P17:32
berndjbart416, i imagine it's a slow / low-yield reaction.  converting an NH2 group to N2 with HNO217:32
azonenbergfor 2-ounces17:32
azonenberggood luck making it cheaper than that on a small scale17:33
bart416berndj, I wouldn't use that to be honnest17:33
azonenbergit'd cost me that much just to get hno3 + h2so417:33
bart416I'd start out with something that already has the double nitrogen17:33
berndjhmm. like what?17:33
berndjmothballs are cheap17:34
azonenberglol, i'm just thinking what a bunch of geeks we must look like to outsiders :p17:34
azonenbergDiscussing methods of turning mothballs into chemicals for making ICs17:35
azonenbergas a sunday-afternoon pastime17:35
azonenbergAnd being entirely serious about it17:35
bart416azonenberg, I'm considering taking http://www.opleidingen.ugent.be/studiegids/2006/EN/FACULTY/WE/COURSE/CLSHEI/02K00076/INDEX.HTM17:35
bart416Not sure if I'll be allowed though :(17:36
bart416Credit contract?Access is determined after successful competences assessment17:36
bart416^that's why17:36
bart416I'm not in chemical engineering17:36
azonenbergoh, what are you in?17:36
azonenbergif you've taken basic chem and push the right people in the right direction17:37
bart416Though strictly speaking I do qualify for it no matter what with my physics degree17:37
azonenbergyou probably will be able to17:37
bart416Not so sure17:39
bart416There are a lot of problems with this17:39
bart416+ only 15 hours17:48
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