| B0101 | hi azonenberg | 02:59 |
|---|---|---|
| azonenberg | hi | 02:59 |
| azonenberg | berndj: lol | 02:59 |
| azonenberg | And when you hit e-beam... | 02:59 |
| azonenberg | You think DNQ is home synthesizable? | 02:59 |
| azonenberg | I am not enough of a chemist to be willing to attempt it | 03:00 |
| azonenberg | If nothing else because i dont know how to mix with the resin in the proper proportion etc | 03:00 |
| azonenberg | Not to mention you have to do the entire synthesis in the dark :P | 03:00 |
| azonenberg | And i know zilch about o-chem | 03:00 |
| B0101 | guess what? Someone really called the cops | 03:03 |
| azonenberg | o_O | 03:03 |
| azonenberg | how'd it turn out | 03:04 |
| B0101 | and i have a license, so nothing wrong with my experiments | 03:04 |
| azonenberg | :) | 03:04 |
| B0101 | how paranoid can people get anyway? | 03:05 |
| azonenberg | Very, apparently | 03:05 |
| B0101 | i hope that nobody is going to write a letter to the MP | 03:06 |
| B0101 | here, people call police --> does not work --> letter to MP | 03:06 |
| azonenberg | And what can they do if you arent breaking any laws? | 03:06 |
| B0101 | nothing | 03:06 |
| azonenberg | Exactly | 03:07 |
| B0101 | but they have pretty weird suggestions | 03:07 |
| B0101 | there was a case where someone was cooking curry, neighbors didn't like it --> write to MP | 03:07 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | And the result was? | 03:08 |
| B0101 | MP says: Cook your curry only when your neighbors are not around | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:08 |
| azonenberg | wow | 03:08 |
| B0101 | the neighbors are from china | 03:08 |
| B0101 | so i would say: racism | 03:09 |
| azonenberg | you are? | 03:09 |
| Action: azonenberg has no idea of your ethnic background :p | 03:09 | |
| B0101 | I am of no race | 03:09 |
| B0101 | I am happy with anyone | 03:09 |
| B0101 | does not matter if you're muslim, indian, chinese, whatever | 03:10 |
| B0101 | we're still human... | 03:10 |
| azonenberg | Too bad there aren't more people like that :p | 03:10 |
| azonenberg | just imagine how nice it'd be if the world was run by scientists and engineers | 03:11 |
| azonenberg | instead of politicians and, in some areas, religious zealots | 03:11 |
| B0101 | i believe it would be a better world | 03:12 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 03:13 |
| Action: B0101 can no longer stand political idiots | 03:13 | |
| azonenberg | I've abstained in every election since i became elegible to vote | 03:13 |
| azonenberg | Because i disliked all candidates equally | 03:14 |
| azonenberg | and could not in good conscience vote for any of them :p | 03:14 |
| B0101 | here in singapore, voting is compulsory | 03:14 |
| azonenberg | In such a situation i'd probably vote for the candidate with the least chance of winning | 03:15 |
| azonenberg | just so that when one of the other guys wins and screws things up even more | 03:15 |
| azonenberg | i have the satisfaction of knowing i didnt vote for him | 03:15 |
| B0101 | but, here, if you don't vote, your name will be canceled off the voters list | 03:15 |
| B0101 | and you are not allowed to vote anymore | 03:16 |
| azonenberg | Yeah - I'd still want the option if i ever found someone who was worth voting for | 03:16 |
| azonenberg | But in the majority of cases, all of the candidates have the same fatal flaw | 03:16 |
| azonenberg | They're all politicians | 03:16 |
| B0101 | agreed | 03:16 |
| B0101 | they claim to do things for the people, but when they get elected, they screw up everything | 03:17 |
| B0101 | but here... | 03:17 |
| B0101 | the same people are being voted for every election | 03:18 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:18 |
| B0101 | many people are aware that my government is failing in executing its duties | 03:18 |
| azonenberg | like i said, there's a reason i stay out of politics as best i can | 03:18 |
| B0101 | how much does a bus fare cost over there? | 03:19 |
| azonenberg | No matter how incompetent your government is, the people still need science done | 03:19 |
| azonenberg | Hmm, its been a while since i actually paid for one | 03:19 |
| azonenberg | my tuition includes a free pass for the local routes | 03:19 |
| azonenberg | and i rarely travel farther than that | 03:19 |
| azonenberg | gets me to the grocery store and back | 03:20 |
| B0101 | here... the bus fare costs 1.70+ | 03:20 |
| azonenberg | or into the city and back | 03:20 |
| azonenberg | USD? | 03:20 |
| azonenberg | or in your local currency | 03:20 |
| B0101 | SGD. | 03:20 |
| azonenberg | 1.36? | 03:20 |
| azonenberg | usd | 03:20 |
| azonenberg | My guess is, it might actually be more for some of the routes here | 03:21 |
| azonenberg | but it depends on how far | 03:21 |
| B0101 | 1.37 | 03:21 |
| azonenberg | Depends on whose conversion table you use i guess lol | 03:21 |
| azonenberg | that last significant digit changes all the time | 03:21 |
| B0101 | last time, the fares were measured by time | 03:21 |
| azonenberg | like i said i have no idea as i havent paid for a bus fare in months | 03:21 |
| azonenberg | since i dont really travel too far from school unless i'm with a group and usually someone in the group has a car | 03:22 |
| B0101 | life is hell here though | 03:24 |
| B0101 | thats why many people have left singapore | 03:24 |
| B0101 | for good | 03:24 |
| B0101 | but... | 03:24 |
| B0101 | for men, if they haven't completed compulsory military service, they cannot give up their citizenship | 03:25 |
| B0101 | even if the guy have lived in US for his whole life, he still has to go back | 03:26 |
| B0101 | enough about government | 03:27 |
| azonenberg | Lol indeed | 03:28 |
| wolfspraul | B0101: someone called the police because you were doing some chemical work at home? | 03:31 |
| wolfspraul | how did they find out about your experiments? | 03:31 |
| B0101 | wolfspraul: i know i was doing a chemical experiment but how they found out? i have no idea | 03:33 |
| wolfspraul | maybe you should think about that | 03:35 |
| azonenberg | wolfspraul: for a law abiding home scientist, hiding is usually the last thing on your mind | 03:35 |
| wolfspraul | who called anyway? your neighbors? | 03:35 |
| wolfspraul | ah well, let's call it 'environmental awareness' :-) | 03:36 |
| wolfspraul | if you home is bugged, you would probably at least like to know, right? | 03:36 |
| B0101 | my neighbor called the cops | 03:36 |
| wolfspraul | if your sources are keeping track of your purchases and reporting them somewhere, you would like to know | 03:36 |
| azonenberg | wolfspraul: oh, lol | 03:36 |
| azonenberg | That's what you're talking about | 03:36 |
| wolfspraul | I live in Beijing, I have no illusions | 03:36 |
| B0101 | but my sources? no' | 03:36 |
| wolfspraul | and he lives in Singapore | 03:36 |
| wolfspraul | that's what we call a police state | 03:37 |
| wolfspraul | but how did the neighbors find out? | 03:37 |
| azonenberg | Well, they claim the neighbor called them | 03:37 |
| azonenberg | first of all | 03:37 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 03:37 |
| azonenberg | Might be covering their real source | 03:37 |
| azonenberg | if you want to be paranoid | 03:38 |
| wolfspraul | me being an englightened westerner, I would directly talk to my neighbors | 03:38 |
| wolfspraul | see what's going on | 03:38 |
| azonenberg | And, having been on the wrong end of US gov't surveillance, i have few illusions either :P | 03:38 |
| azonenberg | Though I do not think my apartment is bugged | 03:38 |
| wolfspraul | B0101: most suppliers of chemical goods are nowadays reporting here and there | 03:38 |
| wolfspraul | I think that's a given | 03:38 |
| wolfspraul | but how do the neighbors know about your experiment? interesting | 03:39 |
| B0101 | time to find out | 03:39 |
| wolfspraul | me in Beijing, I watch for the smallest 'unusual' thing | 03:39 |
| wolfspraul | in China you learn this: there is nothing unusual | 03:39 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 03:39 |
| wolfspraul | coincidence? ha ha | 03:39 |
| wolfspraul | you bet | 03:39 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 03:39 |
| B0101 | be right back | 03:39 |
| azonenberg | To quote an acquaintance of mine... "I'm a lawyer. They pay me not to believe in coincidences." | 03:39 |
| azonenberg | I won't call him a friend, we didnt get along well | 03:40 |
| azonenberg | but i do have to give him credit for that lol | 03:40 |
| azonenberg | summed it up quice nicely | 03:40 |
| wolfspraul | I would order as much as possible under aliases | 03:41 |
| wolfspraul | I think that's just fair | 03:41 |
| B0101 | My neighbor said that he suspected me | 03:41 |
| wolfspraul | balance it out | 03:41 |
| azonenberg | It depends a lot on the situation | 03:41 |
| azonenberg | the country you're in, general political climate | 03:41 |
| wolfspraul | they do data mining, I use aliases | 03:41 |
| wolfspraul | it just restores the natural equilibrium | 03:42 |
| azonenberg | in the US people are somewhat paranoid but it isnt what i'd call a police state (not yet at least) | 03:42 |
| B0101 | he saw me bring in equipment into my house (dang!) | 03:42 |
| azonenberg | it's such that the looking-bad aspect of trying to hide | 03:42 |
| azonenberg | would do more harm than the possible benefit | 03:42 |
| azonenberg | Somewhere else? You have to judge for yourself | 03:42 |
| wolfspraul | trying to hide makes you look good in my book | 03:42 |
| azonenberg | Around here, it would make you look like a criminal | 03:43 |
| wolfspraul | the bad guys are in disguise, they have the best, and wrong, trained cover story | 03:43 |
| wolfspraul | yeah well | 03:43 |
| wolfspraul | that way the US will go deeper into police state, slowly :-) | 03:43 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:43 |
| wolfspraul | unless more people learn that it's the worst guys that look best | 03:43 |
| wolfspraul | because it's their profession | 03:43 |
| azonenberg | yeah | 03:43 |
| wolfspraul | I live in China | 03:43 |
| B0101 | wolfspraul: My suppliers will never report anything | 03:44 |
| azonenberg | B0101: how sure are you about that | 03:44 |
| wolfspraul | yes, I don't believe that | 03:44 |
| wolfspraul | and in Singapore to boot | 03:44 |
| wolfspraul | do you order anonymously? | 03:44 |
| wolfspraul | if that is even possible in Singapore | 03:44 |
| azonenberg | One of my biggest suppliers is a US gov't contractor from what i understand | 03:44 |
| azonenberg | They impose quantity limits on purchases of strong oxidizers by private individuals etc | 03:45 |
| azonenberg | And i'm sure if i ordered specific combinations of materials it'd get reported | 03:45 |
| B0101 | everytime I buy chemicals, its always over the phone | 03:45 |
| B0101 | and... | 03:45 |
| azonenberg | On the other hand, i also doubt they have a database of every single person who bought a liter of technical grade HCl | 03:45 |
| wolfspraul | they mine everything they can get their hands on | 03:46 |
| wolfspraul | and it's stored indefinitely, I think we can safely assume that | 03:46 |
| B0101 | since my company does use chemicals, nothing wrong about that | 03:46 |
| azonenberg | Oh, if its collected it definitely is | 03:46 |
| wolfspraul | in the US in particular the 'national security' machine is already mostly out of control | 03:46 |
| azonenberg | The NSA's data warehouses are probably in the exabytes by now | 03:46 |
| azonenberg | if not more | 03:46 |
| wolfspraul | they do whatever they want, justify their own need, grow happily, etc. | 03:46 |
| wolfspraul | let's see where it goes | 03:47 |
| B0101 | I wonder what people can do with Quantum computers... | 03:47 |
| wolfspraul | if you say anything against this 'security' machine you are deemed suspicious already | 03:47 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:47 |
| azonenberg | security != security theater | 03:47 |
| wolfspraul | but we need the (old) US! | 03:47 |
| wolfspraul | "if you are a good guy you have nothing to hide" ha ha | 03:49 |
| wolfspraul | how out of that with reality that is | 03:49 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:49 |
| wolfspraul | like from evil's playbook | 03:49 |
| B0101 | wolfspraul: i agree about your security machine statement | 03:49 |
| azonenberg | wolfspraul: I have reasonable precautions re encryption of sensitive stuff | 03:49 |
| wolfspraul | the opposite is true | 03:49 |
| azonenberg | All of my long term archival storage is compartmentalized by project | 03:49 |
| azonenberg | and i never mount them unless i need to | 03:50 |
| wolfspraul | if it were that simple, lies could grow indefinitely | 03:50 |
| azonenberg | so even if i'm being keylogged i'm safe | 03:50 |
| B0101 | Encryption may soon be useless though | 03:50 |
| wolfspraul | so this stupid trick must be debunked first | 03:50 |
| azonenberg | But, tbh, i am not that worried about national intelligence | 03:50 |
| wolfspraul | the more you hide, the more likely you are a good guy | 03:50 |
| azonenberg | by the time they're interested in me, i'll probably be working for them or someone on their level | 03:50 |
| azonenberg | i am far more worried about the paranoid neighbor | 03:51 |
| azonenberg | who can make my life a hassle now and doesn't have to do any data mining to make that happen | 03:51 |
| wolfspraul | it's the worst case that try to tell us we shouldn't hide anything | 03:51 |
| wolfspraul | remind to self: use more aliases more consistently :-) | 03:51 |
| wolfspraul | rotate them more often | 03:52 |
| wolfspraul | B0101: keep an eye on your neighbors :-) | 03:52 |
| wolfspraul | if something suspicious happens, they would probably want you to call the police... | 03:52 |
| wolfspraul | just in case | 03:52 |
| wolfspraul | 1-800-suspect | 03:53 |
| azonenberg | lol | 03:53 |
| B0101 | Never buy a lot of paint here. you'd know why | 03:54 |
| Action: azonenberg wonders what illegal purposes paint can be used for | 03:55 | |
| azonenberg | i know about (and avoid buying) several common drug / explosive precursors but paint isn't on any of the lists i'm aware of | 03:55 |
| azonenberg | Thats another thing that helps | 03:55 |
| azonenberg | Not buying items on watchlists | 03:55 |
| B0101 | in Singapore, loan sharks splash paint on houses (if the owner didn't pay up) | 03:56 |
| B0101 | and therefore, if your neighbors see you buy a lot of paint, watch out | 03:57 |
| Action: B0101 wonders if ISP is logging her internet use | 04:09 | |
| azonenberg | B0101: Don't wonder that | 04:09 |
| azonenberg | Wonder how much they're logging | 04:09 |
| azonenberg | full packets? keywords? just basic stats like average bytes per second plus some search queries? | 04:09 |
| B0101 | i have no idea what they're logging (if they are logging) | 04:10 |
| B0101 | I hope they aren't though | 04:11 |
| wolfspraul | oh of course they are | 04:11 |
| wolfspraul | in fact most likely multiple entities are logging, whatever they can get their hands on | 04:11 |
| Action: B0101 wonders where has privacy gone to | 04:12 | |
| wolfspraul | I don't think I'm paranoid, just realistic about internet traffic in 2011 | 04:12 |
| azonenberg | Ok, its possible your ISP isnt logging | 04:12 |
| azonenberg | But they are cooperating with the gov't logging | 04:12 |
| wolfspraul | we need to use more ssl (no matter how broken it is), more tunnels, more anonymizers/tor etc. | 04:12 |
| azonenberg | I run SSL over basically everything that allows it | 04:12 |
| wolfspraul | I don't think you can make that distinction anymore | 04:12 |
| azonenberg | but i trust it only to prevent casual snooping | 04:12 |
| azonenberg | wolfspraul: the isp isnt logging for their own purposes | 04:13 |
| azonenberg | i mean | 04:13 |
| wolfspraul | there's too many backdoors here and there | 04:13 |
| wolfspraul | after 9/11, it was still a big deal that the 'feds' wanted access to the 'server rooms' at the big telcos | 04:13 |
| wolfspraul | I think nowadays the only question is how big the teams are that are working on yet smarter 'apis' for the various 'agencies' | 04:13 |
| wolfspraul | in China they are getting to the point of doing automated live tracking of certain keywords spoken over the phone | 04:14 |
| wolfspraul | for SMS that already works for many years | 04:14 |
| wolfspraul | but now they are upgrading, and can do it even for audio :-) | 04:14 |
| azonenberg | wolfspraul: The only thing i use phone for, re sensitive data | 04:14 |
| azonenberg | is to exchange key fingerprints | 04:15 |
| wolfspraul | so if I speak certain keywords, bang, the line drops | 04:15 |
| azonenberg | afetr authenticating the other party by voice and the codeword of the day/hour :P | 04:15 |
| wolfspraul | the capacity is only enough for part of all numbers now, but moore's law should help with that | 04:15 |
| azonenberg | And i dont think they drop calls here | 04:15 |
| azonenberg | just flag them for monitoring | 04:15 |
| wolfspraul | oh I play with the system :-) | 04:15 |
| wolfspraul | I send the dirty words, only to watch the sms disappearing in nirvana | 04:15 |
| azonenberg | Let me put it this way, even when i know for a fact that They were watching | 04:16 |
| azonenberg | as in, a conversation between me and a friend was being MITMed in real time | 04:16 |
| wolfspraul | but I also don't care about 'canceled' sim cards, since I swap my sim cards often | 04:16 |
| azonenberg | and messages were being received the other guy hadnt sent | 04:16 |
| azonenberg | the communication never got dropped | 04:16 |
| wolfspraul | yes that is happening in CHina, right now only for numbers on (growing) watchlists | 04:16 |
| wolfspraul | for sms it's here for years, for audio growing now | 04:16 |
| wolfspraul | that's in addition to the archiving and voice fingerprinting, of course | 04:17 |
| azonenberg | Well, thats the difference between our countries | 04:17 |
| azonenberg | china wants to suppress communication of certain subjects | 04:17 |
| azonenberg | in the usa, they just want to know you're talking about it | 04:17 |
| wolfspraul | I wouldn't be surprised if they archive _all_ mobile phone data | 04:18 |
| wolfspraul | I mean, I would | 04:18 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 04:18 |
| azonenberg | You mean, full voice logs plus sms? | 04:18 |
| wolfspraul | storage capacity is cheap, and you never know what you can mine out of it later | 04:18 |
| azonenberg | and endpoint data? | 04:18 |
| wolfspraul | and there is zero judicial oversight, no downside essentially | 04:19 |
| B0101 | I want to have as much privacy as possible, but i think that may not be possible now... :( | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | yes sure, everything | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | why not | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | here in the usa my guess is that they have sms logs | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | voice ID data (who called what number when) | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | and maybe TTS transcriptions | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | it's just a technical problem, amount of data etc. | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | but that means - more budget for my unit :-) | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | that's all | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | I would do it. | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | i dont know if they have full audio | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | in China I would be surprised if they didn't | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | if i had reliable enough speech recognition i'd just do transcripts | 04:19 |
| wolfspraul | only a technical problem | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | But yes | 04:19 |
| azonenberg | it would not surprise me at all | 04:20 |
| wolfspraul | they will start with watchlists, then grow as the technical abilities get better | 04:20 |
| azonenberg | I just dont think the usa is going to go to the point that china is, because the gov't has differnet goals | 04:21 |
| azonenberg | thdey dont want to prevent people from talking about stuff | 04:21 |
| azonenberg | they want information | 04:21 |
| azonenberg | if they cut you off, they dont know what you're about to do | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | let's see. gsm is nicely compressed, 1KB/sec roughly? | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | so in 1hr that's 3.6 MB | 04:22 |
| azonenberg | no idea, but yes its def feasible to log | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | the cutoff is to avoid 'waves' going through the system, like a large group coordinating for some event/demonstration | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | that needs to happen in real-time | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | just cutoff keywords | 04:22 |
| wolfspraul | watch the chatting, if some keywords suddenly grow - block them | 04:23 |
| wolfspraul | that's like a first-line response | 04:23 |
| wolfspraul | then you can do some mining to find the sources and quietly track down and labor-camp those people later | 04:23 |
| azonenberg | i see | 04:23 |
| wolfspraul | only take out the top 5-10 troublemakers, and weeks later | 04:24 |
| azonenberg | Makes sense | 04:24 |
| wolfspraul | so wait, 3.6 MB / hour | 04:24 |
| wolfspraul | let's say 2 hours / day | 04:24 |
| wolfspraul | 7 MB | 04:24 |
| azonenberg | i'd say 20 | 04:24 |
| azonenberg | be conservative | 04:24 |
| wolfspraul | 1 million phones = 7 terabytes? | 04:24 |
| wolfspraul | correct? | 04:24 |
| azonenberg | double that, say 16TB | 04:24 |
| wolfspraul | 500 million phones would be? | 04:24 |
| azonenberg | you can build a server with that much capacity for $4000 | 04:25 |
| wolfspraul | what comes after tera? | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | if not less | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | peta | 04:25 |
| wolfspraul | ok | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | a PB per day is a little much i think | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | but transcripts of calls? | 04:25 |
| wolfspraul | 16tb*500=8000tb=8 petabytes | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | from automated speech recognition | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | plus metadata of who called who when for how long | 04:25 |
| wolfspraul | who knows there are lots of dialects etc. | 04:25 |
| wolfspraul | better be safe than sorry | 04:25 |
| azonenberg | In china it'd be harder | 04:25 |
| wolfspraul | plus remember: bigger technical problem = more budget for my unit/department | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | Or, record anything you cant make text of | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | nah, just everything | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | with >95% probability | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | 8 petabytes per day | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | 250 petabytes per month | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | 3000 petabytes per year | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | Thats a lot | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | what budget is needed for that? | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | 100 million USD / year ? | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | Three exabytes per year | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | Let's see | 04:26 |
| wolfspraul | peanuts | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | 3000 PB = 3 million TB | 04:26 |
| azonenberg | 1TB = say $20 at bulk prices | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | plus infrastructure for hosting etc | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | So hmm | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | for $100M/yr you probably could | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | and? | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | it might actually be feasible | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | you think it's not happening? | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | h aha | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | that's almost too small for the military | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | I had no doubt that metadata was being logged | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | they need multi-billion USD projects | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | along with probably text transcripts | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | i just wasnt sure if full audio was feasible | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | but sure they will do this too | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | plus it gets expensive with all the corruption etc. | 04:27 |
| azonenberg | but now that you've run the numbers? i have little doubt NSA is doing it already | 04:27 |
| wolfspraul | so price * 10 | 04:28 |
| wolfspraul | 1 billion USD / year | 04:28 |
| wolfspraul | China spent ca. 100 billion USD last year on 'harmonious society' | 04:28 |
| wolfspraul | which is their codeword for all sorts of suppressive activities | 04:28 |
| wolfspraul | if 1 billion logs all phone traffic, it will be done | 04:29 |
| wolfspraul | and the price is even coming down each year :-) | 04:29 |
| B0101 | I think the size of those logs would have reached the zettabyte range | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | Well, email and other stuff is almost certainly being logged | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | probably not full packet logs of internet traffic | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | but full content of voip and im traffic | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | search history | 04:29 |
| azonenberg | maybe list of URLs visited, at least from pages containing flagged keywords | 04:29 |
| wolfspraul | yes not all internet traffic | 04:29 |
| wolfspraul | but the phone networks are 100% controlled | 04:30 |
| wolfspraul | in China for sure | 04:30 |
| wolfspraul | it's just a technical problem | 04:30 |
| B0101 | azonenberg: remember that i told you that i will be fabricating josephson junctions? | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | What supplies are necessary for that> | 04:32 |
| azonenberg | i know little about the physics | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | I do suggest that you start at macroscale and not try doing lithography AND a new device simultaneously | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | if you are going to try doing microscale, get lithography debugged first | 04:33 |
| azonenberg | Which i am still working on :P | 04:33 |
| B0101 | If i manage to fabricate that, I will use them to do encryption way better than our current technology | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | How so | 04:34 |
| B0101 | they can be used as Qubits for a quantum computer. so, | 04:34 |
| azonenberg | Ooh | 04:35 |
| B0101 | i can use them to encrypt data using states of atoms (quantum computers use atoms) | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | Home quantum computing research | 04:35 |
| azonenberg | i like it | 04:35 |
| B0101 | got the idea from my younger brother | 04:36 |
| B0101 | He told me about these | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | One thing is for sure | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | There is going to be some interesting research coming out of this group in the next few yers | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | years* | 04:36 |
| azonenberg | On that note... going to head out to the living room and play with immersion lithography and double patterning (not simultaneously) | 04:37 |
| azonenberg | be back in an hour or so with results, hopefully | 04:37 |
| B0101 | ok, see you later | 04:37 |
| CIA-67 | homecmos r123 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Merging old lab notes | 05:00 |
| CIA-67 | homecmos r124 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Today's lab notes | 05:45 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, somebody beat you to it! | 13:09 |
| bart416 | http://www.instructables.com/id/Building-a-Portal-Turret/ | 13:09 |
| azonenberg | bart416: there have been quite a few | 16:01 |
| bart416 | Yeah, but this time it was an instructables idiot :( | 16:02 |
| azonenberg | lol | 16:02 |
| azonenberg | The ones in the game are 58 inches high? o_O | 16:03 |
| azonenberg | That's big | 16:03 |
| azonenberg | Mine is going to be ~36" i think tooo | 16:03 |
| azonenberg | Also, i dont think his shoots | 16:04 |
| azonenberg | The biggest feature of mine is that it will have proper machine-vision based target tracking (not just a simple motion detector) | 16:04 |
| azonenberg | and shoot rubber bands at them | 16:04 |
| bart416 | Have you made a chain rubber band launcher? | 16:05 |
| azonenberg | I have a fully automatic one in progress | 16:05 |
| azonenberg | hoping for ~600 RPM rate of fire | 16:05 |
| azonenberg | and 10-20 shot ammo capacity | 16:05 |
| bart416 | I've always found the issue with rubber bands to be feeding the "ammunition" | 16:09 |
| azonenberg | I have a firing mechanism worked out already | 16:10 |
| azonenberg | http://i.imgur.com/rm3Fc.png | 16:10 |
| azonenberg | just have to work out some detalis like the slopes of the ratchets and the exact angle/position of each solenoid | 16:10 |
| bart416 | Yeah, that's a simple firing system | 16:11 |
| bart416 | the issue is feeding the ammunition though | 16:11 |
| azonenberg | You load it all in advance | 16:11 |
| azonenberg | Thats the only feasible way | 16:11 |
| azonenberg | But if you have two of them and 10-20 shots per launcher | 16:12 |
| azonenberg | and the thing fires in 2-5 round bursts | 16:12 |
| azonenberg | that'd last a while | 16:12 |
| azonenberg | Oh, and mine will have an accelerometer | 16:12 |
| azonenberg | so it'll freak out appropriately when knocked over | 16:12 |
| azonenberg | shooting everywhere and a suitable sound bite | 16:13 |
| azonenberg | "No hard feelings" | 16:13 |
| bart416 | meh, loading in advance is meh | 16:25 |
| bart416 | I want to be able to throw 100 rubber bands over a rod | 16:25 |
| bart416 | and get it to launch all of them :P | 16:25 |
| azonenberg | lol | 16:25 |
| azonenberg | Would be nice | 16:25 |
| azonenberg | if you design an actuation system that can do it, i'll write the aiming software :P | 16:26 |
| berndj | azonenberg, while you're working alone in your lab, remember to occasionally randomly say aloud, "I know you're listening" (xkcd reference) | 16:50 |
| azonenberg | lol | 16:50 |
| berndj | and i think you guys are living in the wrong country! | 16:50 |
| berndj | nobody could care less about what experiments you do at home. well if it really is a meth lab and the police have other reasons to visit you, you might have a problem | 16:51 |
| azonenberg | lol | 16:52 |
| azonenberg | If you have a meth lab at home you have problems already :p | 16:52 |
| azonenberg | Like rival dealers | 16:52 |
| azonenberg | to say the least | 16:52 |
| berndj | metadata is certainly logged; how do you think you get billed for your calls? also, police have been catching crooks for years with call metadata. logged at telco of course; but big brother can get at that | 17:04 |
| azonenberg | Yeah | 17:04 |
| azonenberg | The only question is, how much more | 17:05 |
| azonenberg | our consensus is, quite a bit :p | 17:05 |
| berndj | and i think one should make it a habit, and proselytize this habit, of using "suspicious" words in random harmless conversations | 17:05 |
| azonenberg | lol | 17:06 |
| berndj | i think josephson junctions weakly imply microscale - if your loop is too big you won't see the flux quantization | 17:07 |
| azonenberg | Hmm | 17:07 |
| azonenberg | I dont know enouhg about the physics' | 17:07 |
| berndj | ok i'm caught up now | 17:08 |
| azonenberg | And i'm doing homework lol | 17:09 |
| azonenberg | machine vision ftw | 17:09 |
| berndj | i don't feel qualified to have an opinion on complete call logging in your locales, but i expext it's somewhat unlikely in ZA | 17:09 |
| azonenberg | While also trying to make room in my schedule to grade homework for the two classes i'm TAing (computer organization and crypto 1) | 17:09 |
| azonenberg | and if i'm lucky even get some work done on my research | 17:10 |
| berndj | surveillance with (?) warrant during an investigation, sure, but not all-logging-all-the-time | 17:10 |
| azonenberg | I expect its unlikely in the USA but i am nearly certain they have keyword triggers that initiate a speech-recognition based transcript | 17:10 |
| azonenberg | As well as full logging during investigations | 17:11 |
| berndj | all below the board of course | 17:12 |
| berndj | black rooms or what's the jargon? | 17:12 |
| azonenberg | Of course | 17:13 |
| azonenberg | You dont go out and advertise it, the people will revolt | 17:13 |
| azonenberg | you do it slowly | 17:13 |
| azonenberg | it gradually becomes common knowledge and people learn to accept it | 17:13 |
| azonenberg | before long its too late | 17:13 |
| berndj | "for security reasons" [weasel words] | 17:13 |
| azonenberg | and you're living in modern China | 17:13 |
| berndj | there should be some counter-spying | 17:14 |
| azonenberg | The EFF has some nice info on that | 17:14 |
| berndj | i wonder if one can build an interferometer to spy on government offices - red dot on window style | 17:15 |
| azonenberg | I know for a fact that serious intel folks have air-gapped windows etc for that reason | 17:15 |
| azonenberg | and white noise generators | 17:15 |
| berndj | drat | 17:15 |
| azonenberg | Also, red dots are so 1980s | 17:15 |
| azonenberg | everyone doing it these days uses IR | 17:15 |
| berndj | yeah | 17:15 |
| azonenberg | easy to detect electronically or with night vision but at least it wont show up in a casual investigation | 17:16 |
| berndj | don't want visible spots | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | Yep | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | IR you have to look for | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | not that its hard to find | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | But visible can draw your attention and tip your target off | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | Assuming he's not [A-Z]{3} in which case he already knows people want to watch :P | 17:16 |
| berndj | yeah, you have to suspect it before you can find it | 17:16 |
| berndj | anyway my idea is rather to spy on *politicians* than on the NSA itself | 17:19 |
| berndj | to give them a taste of their own medicine | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | I saw that in a movie somewhere | 17:19 |
| azonenberg | Someone was being spied on by a government conspiracy | 17:20 |
| azonenberg | they took all of the surveillance devices and moved them to the office of the senator who ordered the investigation | 17:20 |
| azonenberg | and made at least some of them obvious enough to tip the guy off | 17:20 |
| azonenberg | then his team combed the place and found hundreds of cameras, audio bugs, etc | 17:20 |
| berndj | plot fragment looks familiar | 17:21 |
| berndj | oh, and yes, DNQ looked semi accessible, if you can get HNO3 and H2SO4 | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | Those are easily obtainable | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | But i dont trust my ochem knowledge that far | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | I'm not a chemist | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | i'm a computer scientist dabbling in EE :P | 17:23 |
| berndj | the biggest problem is probably getting the reaction yield you need | 17:24 |
| azonenberg | Like i said, i woudlnt even attempt it | 17:24 |
| azonenberg | But if someone sends me a batch of homemade photoresist i will gladly test it :P | 17:24 |
| berndj | heh. i'm cursed with a bootstrap-everything-from-stone-age-materials mentality | 17:24 |
| berndj | yeah, if you want DNQ in 2011, i'd certainly say just buy it | 17:25 |
| azonenberg | no, i'd buy photoresist :P | 17:25 |
| berndj | (if only i knew where to get it locally, prefer to avoid having to import) | 17:25 |
| azonenberg | complete with resin and solvent | 17:25 |
| azonenberg | where do you live again - ZA? | 17:25 |
| berndj | yes, those ratios are also important, but i think that's minor if you've already made DNQ in your kitchen sink! | 17:25 |
| azonenberg | Lol true | 17:26 |
| berndj | yes, ZA - cape town in particular | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | Hmm, i dont know if there is much ic work going on down there | 17:26 |
| berndj | not that it's impossible to buy stuff from china, but i'd rather just touch a bottle of solution before i buy it | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | i know there are fabs all over western europe and the far east | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | And nobody sells photoresist reatil | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | retail* | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | Nobody | 17:26 |
| azonenberg | I bought mine from a company halfway across the state mail order | 17:26 |
| berndj | we *had* a fab, but i called them the other day to ask about their MPW service, but the fabbing now happens in china :( | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | who rebottled it from a large company | 17:27 |
| berndj | we used to have a whole lot of high-tech stuff, it was part of apartheid sanctions-busting | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | the big companies like AZ wont sell anything less than a few gallons or *maybe* a liter | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | i bought eight ounces of shipley SP24 a year ago | 17:27 |
| berndj | yikes | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | from the reseller | 17:27 |
| azonenberg | they sold down to two | 17:28 |
| berndj | what sort of price does it go for? | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | and in retrospect i should have gotten two :p | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | i havnet used much | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | http://www.injectorall.com/photoresist.htm | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | prices in USD | 17:28 |
| berndj | an ouce being 30-odd grams? | 17:28 |
| berndj | *ounce | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | fluid ounces | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | 2 oz = 59 ml | 17:28 |
| azonenberg | so my 8-oz bottle is 236 ml | 17:29 |
| azonenberg | i've used maybe 50 or 100 over the last year | 17:29 |
| azonenberg | if not less | 17:29 |
| azonenberg | the bottle is around half full but it wasnt full to start | 17:29 |
| berndj | and this stuff is useable also for PCBs? | 17:29 |
| azonenberg | It is marketed for use on pcbs | 17:29 |
| azonenberg | 20um resolution is way more than its made for lol | 17:29 |
| berndj | oh, but it happens to work also on silicon? | 17:29 |
| azonenberg | Yes | 17:29 |
| berndj | nice | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | It also forms a much thicker coating than conventional IC resists | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | so i dilute 50% with acetone | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | to reduce viscosity and form a thinner layer | 17:30 |
| berndj | good point | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | needless to say this also increases yield | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | in terms of cm^2 / ml | 17:30 |
| berndj | and you use only a drop at a time? although you cover a far smaller area too | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | I have a 30ml amber glass bottle | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | half full of 50% SP24 in acetone | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | that i mixed up begining of summer | 17:30 |
| azonenberg | i've been using a drop per die, which is overkill (maybe 80% wastage, if not more) | 17:31 |
| bart416 | That nitrogen group on DNQ is hard to do I think | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | And i still am not going through it at any appreciable rate | 17:31 |
| berndj | part of my anti-import mentality is that it's non-trivial to send money overseas sans credit card. we still have exchange controls :( | 17:31 |
| azonenberg | bart416: My point is that except in extenuating circumstances, you are probably better off buying photoresist | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | since its cheap - a 2-ounce bottle that will last you a year | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | costs about as much as one blank 2-inch wafer | 17:32 |
| bart416 | It'd be cheaper to make though :P | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | $40? | 17:32 |
| berndj | bart416, i imagine it's a slow / low-yield reaction. converting an NH2 group to N2 with HNO2 | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | for 2-ounces | 17:32 |
| azonenberg | good luck making it cheaper than that on a small scale | 17:33 |
| bart416 | berndj, I wouldn't use that to be honnest | 17:33 |
| azonenberg | it'd cost me that much just to get hno3 + h2so4 | 17:33 |
| bart416 | I'd start out with something that already has the double nitrogen | 17:33 |
| berndj | hmm. like what? | 17:33 |
| berndj | mothballs are cheap | 17:34 |
| azonenberg | lol, i'm just thinking what a bunch of geeks we must look like to outsiders :p | 17:34 |
| azonenberg | Discussing methods of turning mothballs into chemicals for making ICs | 17:35 |
| azonenberg | as a sunday-afternoon pastime | 17:35 |
| azonenberg | And being entirely serious about it | 17:35 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, I'm considering taking http://www.opleidingen.ugent.be/studiegids/2006/EN/FACULTY/WE/COURSE/CLSHEI/02K00076/INDEX.HTM | 17:35 |
| azonenberg | ooh | 17:35 |
| bart416 | Not sure if I'll be allowed though :( | 17:36 |
| azonenberg | why? | 17:36 |
| bart416 | Credit contract?Access is determined after successful competences assessment | 17:36 |
| bart416 | ^that's why | 17:36 |
| bart416 | I'm not in chemical engineering | 17:36 |
| azonenberg | oh, what are you in? | 17:36 |
| bart416 | EE | 17:37 |
| azonenberg | if you've taken basic chem and push the right people in the right direction | 17:37 |
| bart416 | Though strictly speaking I do qualify for it no matter what with my physics degree | 17:37 |
| azonenberg | you probably will be able to | 17:37 |
| bart416 | Not so sure | 17:39 |
| bart416 | There are a lot of problems with this | 17:39 |
| bart416 | + only 15 hours | 17:48 |
| --- Mon Sep 19 2011 | 00:00 | |
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