#homecmos IRC log for Saturday, 2011-09-17

berndjbart416, i thought czochralski rigs used silica crucibles (with the side benefit of introducing oxygen impurities).  or what all this "you need high carbon steel" for?01:14
berndjlol @ refractory materials above 10kK01:15
bart416_<berndj> bart416, i thought czochralski rigs used silica crucibles (with the side benefit of introducing oxygen impurities).  or what all this "you need high carbon steel" for? <-- was it a czochralski crucible?07:03
berndjactually i'm not sure anymore what you guys were discussing; i thought it was CZ but when i looked again you might've been talking about making copper wire07:04
bart416Yeah it was confusing what sort of furnace he was talking about07:09
bart416What I do know is that CaO is the worst material ever to make a furnace07:09
bart416And it's the last you'd want to use to grow crystals07:10
B0101Hi azonenberg13:15
azonenbergHow goes the lab setup?13:15
B0101going well... though my neighbors are a little worried about me doing experiments in my own home13:16
azonenbergNot surprising13:17
azonenbergJust be up front about it and dont try to hide13:17
azonenbergit looks better that way if anybody comes asking questions13:17
bart416_Are your neighbours constantly looking through your windows or something?13:20
berndjworried like grandmas worry about their grandkids or worried like they might call 911 on you13:20
B0101the former13:21
azonenbergoh, then thats fine13:22
azonenbergthe second is what you want to be cautious about lol13:22
B0101well once, my friend and her child came over, but somehow, the child got into my room and was playing with my 50KV power supply13:25
bart416_Always lock away your lab equipment13:26
bart416_That's a basic rule13:26
azonenbergbart416_: We just dont allow kids in the place, it'd be too hard to childproof given the random stuff we have lying around13:27
azonenbergwhen i get a house of my own the lab will all be in dedicated rooms with auto-closing doors and card readers13:27
bart416_That's just paranoid :|13:27
azonenbergbart416_: no, its good policy :p13:28
bart416_auto closing doors I'll agree on13:28
bart416_But card readers...13:28
azonenbergall the labs at school do that13:28
azonenbergcard readers mean i can give friends cards rather than keys13:28
azonenbergkeep audit logs if something breaks13:28
bart416_you let other people use your equipment?13:28
azonenbergi plan to construct a building with a living area and a lab space13:28
azonenbergcleanly separated13:29
azonenbergso for example friends staying over wont be allowed into the lab without someone present13:29
azonenbergand if i have someone working on a project with me and i trust them enough they'd have 24/7 lab access but not be allowed into the living spaces under normal circumstances13:29
bart416_Heh, you don't have a plan for the house you want yet?13:29
azonenbergbart416_: not floor plan level, that will be done based on the plot of land i pick13:30
azonenbergbut at list-of-requirements level, yes13:30
bart416_No ideas yet of what you want?13:30
azonenbergYou mean, at the floor plan? No13:30
azonenbergI know i want a class 1000 cleanroom, a machine ship, an electronics lab, a dedicated server room13:31
azonenbergconference room/media center on the border between the lab and the living area13:31
azonenbergsome sort of armory in the basement where i keep all of the stuff i go target shooting with13:32
azonenbergThat'd be a separate card list, just me13:32
B0101azonenberg: wow, you plan to build your own lab and house13:33
azonenbergB0101: Its at least ten years out13:33
azonenberg~5 for the phd and that much again of workign full time to save up enough to build it13:33
azonenbergBut yes13:33
azonenbergThen a SEM somewhere, probably in the cleanroom area13:34
B0101wow, here, u got to ask for permission even if you wanted to change the window13:34
azonenbergB0101: I'd buy an empty plot of land (or one with an old building and tear it down)13:34
azonenbergGet all of the necessary building permits13:34
cheaterazonenberg: you could also have guest areas with direct access to the work area, for people who want to be able ti live-in and work but don't want to bother with the social stuff.13:34
azonenbergAnd design/build the whole place from scratch13:34
azonenbergcheater: I might13:34
azonenbergLike the media center for example13:35
cheatereg being seen by your wife and kids with only their boxers on.13:35
azonenbergwhich would double as a conference room for the lab13:35
azonenbergAnd that would not be allowed13:35
azonenbergdress code for the lab area is fully clothed plus lab coat if necessary13:35
azonenbergor bunny suit, in the cleanroom13:35
B0101Azonenberg: in here... almost EVERY building is controlled by government13:35
azonenbergif you arent wearing anything under the bunny suit, who cares13:35
cheaterit was just an example, but being unshaved or uncombed are other options13:35
azonenbergoh, yeah13:35
azonenbergB0101: Not in the good old usa, here you can own the building13:36
cheaterB0101: where is that? sounds like russia13:36
cheateractually no, russia has got those freedoms13:36
cheatercommunist russia didn't13:36
cheatersingapore.. i feel with yo13:36
azonenbergcheater: If i build a guest-bedroom type facility i might put it on the border as well13:37
azonenberghave two doors13:37
B0101cheater: the democratic communist state of Singapore (as some people call it)13:37
cheaterB0101: yes13:37
azonenbergcheater: i'd probably have the shared area in the middle and put the front door there13:38
azonenbergBoth sides can get into it13:38
azonenbergand enter/leave the building through it13:38
azonenbergthen you need a card to leave in either direction13:38
azonenbergleave the common area*13:39
azonenbergi.e. into the lab or the living spaces13:39
cheaterhow about a chinese wire puzzle instead13:39
B0101hmm, biometrics or card system?13:39
azonenbergB0101: Not fingerprints13:39
azonenberga) doesnt work with gloves on13:39
azonenbergb) you leave them everywhere, easy to clone13:40
azonenbergRetinal / iris scans are expensive13:40
cheateryou can clone them off the reader13:40
cheaterwith gelatin13:40
azonenbergif i can get them, i'll use them13:40
azonenbergcheater: there are a lot of ways13:40
azonenbergpoint is, they arent that strong13:40
cheaterwhy do you need so much security :)13:40
azonenbergcheater: its in part the convenience factor13:40
azonenbergnot having to carry around keys13:40
azonenbergalso, due diligence and liability13:40
azonenbergsignificantly reduces the risk of a visitor getting hurt by stupidity13:41
cheaterwhat when the power is off13:41
azonenbergsince they cant get into anything dangerous unless i trust them enough to give them access13:41
azonenbergcheater: then the doors revert to being key or combination locks13:41
azonenbergi'd have a key in a safe in the common area13:41
azonenbergthat i could use in emergencies like that13:41
azonenbergthe point is, i dont have to give out keys13:41
B0101hmm, password protected lock...13:41
azonenbergto let someone in13:41
azonenbergSame reason hotels use cards13:42
azonenbergeasier to add/remove a serial number than to rekey a door13:42
azonenbergAlso, audit trail13:42
azonenbergif someone goes into a lab and breaks something i know who was in there recently13:42
azonenbergI just see it as being better for all involved13:43
B0101azonenberg: I have seen keypad locks with card readers13:43
azonenbergB0101: I might do something like that too13:43
azonenbergbattery backup?13:44
azonenbergso you can combo in if the card system is down?13:44
azonenbergThe only potential downside would be privacy but "john doe was here at 2 AM and used the electron microscope for 45 minutes, then left" is not something most people would care if the world knew13:44
B0101Azonenberg: the keypad and card lock I'm talking about requires you to scan your card then enter a password13:45
azonenbergB0101: Combination is probably overkill13:45
azonenbergif i did two factor it'd be card + biometric or combo + biometric13:45
azonenbergcheater: also, i could integrate it with a burglar alarm (since the equipment would obviously be expensive)13:46
azonenbergif you key in you need to disarm the alarm at the keypad13:46
azonenbergbut if you card in, it does both in one step13:46
B0101now people want to see my lab???13:47
azonenbergneighbors or police? lol13:48
B0101the people i'm talking about are well: my friends13:48
azonenbergoh, lol13:48
azonenbergOnce people find out i have a setup this nice they usually want to see it13:48
azonenbergGet used to it :p13:48
azonenbergidk if you've seen my lab lately but http://imgur.com/a/Bnwst is the current state (last night)13:48
azonenberga couple of experiments in progress so not the most tidy on the workbenches13:49
B0101looks like my current eletronics work area, without the chemicals13:50
azonenbergThree sit-down workbenches (for soldering/wet work, electronics testing/assembly, and microscopy)13:50
azonenbergand two standing (for spin coating, baking, and contact lithography)13:51
azonenbergthen the server rack13:51
B0101azonenberg: well you have a great lab13:51
azonenbergNot sure if you can see in the pics but we have full fire sprinkler coverage13:51
azonenbergthe entire building has a dry-pipe system13:51
azonenbergThe binder on the vertical shelf next to the safety glasses is a MSDS book13:52
azonenberg*prints out msds for diamond polishing compound* cant forget that13:53
B0101anyone fancies a "warning: trespassers with me used for experiments" sign?13:53
azonenbergi've seen that13:54
azonenbergMight not go over too well with the neighbors :p13:54
B0101If i told them my neighbors that I bought uranium, i'm sure that they will kill me13:55
B0101In this country, a little experiment of everyone near you, and i mean EVERYONE near you13:58
B0101*will alarm13:58
B0101"danger: big scary laser..."14:00
azonenbergDo not look into beam *with remaining eye*14:01
Action: B0101 pictures a scene of doing an experiment and horror music playing in the background14:02
azonenbergGotta be a proper mad scientist14:03
azonenbergI havent seen villagers with pitchforks outside though - must not be trying hard enough14:03
Action: azonenberg needs more evil minions :P14:03
azonenbergAnd an army of killer robots :p14:06
B0101ok, this is going to scare children14:06
azonenbergactually, in all seriousness i am working on an autonomous robot rubber-band-gun turret with a friend14:07
azonenbergshe claims to be one of my evil minions lol14:07
azonenbergBut i need more of them14:07
azonenbergi dont have anybody who knows fiberglass or composites yet14:08
Action: B0101 wonder what can be with done some carbon 14:10
B0101azonenberg: heard of carbon nanotube transistors?14:12
azonenbergA little complex for amateur work though14:12
azonenbergafaik you basically need a SEM to align everything14:12
B0101well, i'm going to bed, ttyl14:13
bart416_Why not make those single atom transistors if you're going to switch to that sort of thing?14:16
azonenbergLater this afternoon i am going to try and figure out what is up with my metal hardmasks not working14:30
bart416_btw, I have a nice toy arriving next week (though it's not for me)14:30
bart416_An industrial CO2 laser xD14:30
azonenbergetch off all of the metal and see if the KOH still doesnt etch the silicon14:30
azonenbergand lol, for what?14:30
bart416_Dunno, a friend asked me to buy one from amazon :S14:31
bart416_He's giving me 5% ontop for some reason :S14:31
Action: azonenberg makes mental note to wear long sleeves next time he welds14:31
azonenbergi still have a bunch of spatter marks on my arm from thursday's practice session lol14:32
bart416_(5% on 2000 euro is nice)14:32
bart416_When working with warm metal, wear thick fireproof clothing or no clothing at all...14:33
azonenbergbart416_: i was wearing heavy jeans on my legs14:33
azonenbergand i think a leather apron14:33
azonenbergjust forgot the lower arm14:33
azonenbergeverything from glove to shoulder got some spatter lol14:33
azonenbergI'll remember next time lol14:35
azonenberggonna be down there a decent amoutn this semester because i want to get good at MiG and then learn TiG14:35
CIA-67homecmos r122 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Yesterday's lab notes14:40
bart416_Jeans is actually fairly good14:42
bart416_As long as it are only small spats that is14:42
azonenbergYeah, and leather boots14:43
azonenberglike i said just a stupid oversight on my part14:43
azonenbergi've welded before, just was never very good at it14:43
azonenbergthis was my first time on an auto-darking helmet14:43
azonenbergits like night and day vs the always-shade-12 ones :p14:43
azonenbergi could actually see where the torch was pointing before striking the arc14:44
bart416_Maybe you should buy one of these: http://www.modernapparels.com/fire_proximity_suit.htm14:45
bart416_They're annoying as hell to wear14:45
azonenbergIs this from experience?14:45
azonenbergLol, hwat occasion did you have to wear one14:45
bart416_NDA :(14:45
azonenbergHow about http://www.modernapparels.com/fire-entry-suit.html14:45
bart416_I suppose it's clear we were melting small batches of metal14:46
azonenbergNot really clear, the same suit can be used for close range firefighting14:46
bart416_If you ever have to wear one, be sure to have something to pad your shoulders ;)14:47
azonenbergHopefully i never do14:47
bart416_That's my only suggestion14:47
bart416_The pants are weirdly enough comfortable14:48
bart416_It's the vest that's the problem14:48
bart416_Well, I suppose it's still better than those throw away overalls14:50
azonenbergi wear a disposable tyvek lab coat for splash protection when doing etching14:50
azonenberggets annoying14:50
azonenbergBut weighs practically nothing14:50
azonenbergi need to get myself a real cotton lab coat at some point14:50
bart416_We were fairly lucky in that aspect, we got to wear scrubs under our throw away overalls14:51
azonenbergwhat was that for? Or can you not say14:51
bart416_To avoid contaminating our own clothes14:52
bart416_We were working with dangerous chemicals in that lab where I did my internship14:53
azonenbergMakes sense14:53
bart416_Not to mention it's easier to remove scrubs instead of regular clothes14:53
bart416_Incase of accidents14:53
azonenbergWhen you say "dangerous" do you mean corrosive? toxic? both?14:54
bart416_Among those yes14:54
berndjre retinal / iris scans, am i the only person in the world who remembers seeing _Demolition Man_ ?15:52
bart416_Demolition Man was an awful movie15:53
bart416_It praises uncivilised behaviour15:53
berndji was planning to test out my auto-darkening helmet a bit later azonenberg; glad to hear you foind it a night and day difference!15:55
berndjof course, but it's only a matter of time before crooks start routinely poking eyes out and chopping fingers off15:55
berndjthe fact that it won't work doesn't console me!15:56
bart416_For a fingerprint scanner it'd sort of work...16:23
mrdataso, would 99.999% pure silicon be good enough for homecmos?19:45
bart416What sort of impurities are we talking about?19:46
bart416If it's not a dopant it'll fall under crystal defects19:46
mrdataoh, usually aluminum is the worst to remove19:47
bart416The latter will decrease the yield but shouldn't prevent succesful junctions19:47
bart416Al might be problematic19:47
azonenbergbart416: For my current MEMS, its probably good enough19:48
azonenbergi am not using it as a semiconductor, only a structural material19:48
azonenbergThough i am relying on it being monocrystalline19:48
bart416yeah for MEMS and simple conduction it should do fine19:49
bart416If you're forming junctions aluminium might be problematic19:49
mrdatahow does it affect the result?19:49
bart416It shifts the levels of the energy bands in certain locations19:50
bart416Resulting in improper junction behaviour or schottky diode effect19:50
mrdataoh, and that will screw with the device properties..19:50
mrdatai see19:50
bart416the latter might be more problematic actually19:51
mrdatawhat sorts of devices would be less sensitive to that?19:52
mrdatai know solar cell applications are okay19:53
mrdatabut, what else would be relatively unaffected?19:53
Action: mrdata imagines making an array of devices, that differ slightly in their properties due to impurities; and recording test results for later use19:58
mrdatasay, if each one is an artificial neuron19:59
bart416well, some of them20:00
bart416as long as you don't need junctions MEMS should do20:00
bart416Might lead to some capacitive defects but nothing you can't compensate for20:00
mrdataand junctions would be the most problematic?20:01
bart416At a junction you want perfection20:01
mrdatacan i take a probablistic approach to making junctions? eg: mark as bad, the ones that dont work, in an array?20:03
bart416yeah, what do you think semiconductor manufacturers do?20:04
bart416Making computer processors is a game of statistics20:04
bart416But the lower your purity, the lower the yield20:04
mrdataso, they make redundancy and test and re-route?20:04
bart416they don't reroute20:05
bart416They just make large enough batches and refine the process to maximise yield20:06
mrdataso do they typically throw out a lot of stuff?20:07
mrdataeg: half?20:07
mrdataor more20:07
bart416Depends on the complexity of the production, the process, purity of materials20:09
bart41650% won't be enough to run a profit at consumer prices I guess20:09
bart416maybe good for an asic run of a low quantity IC20:11
mrdatai hear that for small parts, like NPN transistors, they are made in batches, and each one tested, and then categorized as 2n2222 vs 2n3904 for example20:11
mrdataso, everything in the same bin has a specified range of properties20:13
bart416Yeah, but some are also defective20:14
bart416+ NPN are two junctions20:14
bart416fairly simple design20:15
berndjor sometimes they sell the ones with defects in the cache as "celeron"23:17
berndjand 2n3055 is what it gets called if it doesn't make spec for anything else23:17
berndjdammit, why do i answer first then notice they've quite :(23:18
azonenbergOr if the error is in logic circuitry23:18
azonenbergthey sell a quad core as a triple :p23:18
berndjoh yes, i should turn the time machine dial back to 2010s23:19
berndjbut, i thought logic is just a miniscule part of CPUs these days? that almost all of the die area is memory of one sort or another?23:19
XgFL2/L3 Cache is about half of the die these days23:20
azonenbergberndj: Cache is a big chunk23:20
azonenbergBut depends on the part23:20
berndjregister file is surprisingly big, due to the number of ports it has23:20
azonenbergfor example, gtx 480 has 15 of 16 shaders active23:20
azonenbergand i'm too familiar with that lol23:21
azonenbergmips register file in a simple 5-stage pipelined implementation is triple ported, two read and one write23:21
azonenbergi have five ports (one write, two execute-stage read, two decode-stage read) in my 8-bit arch23:21
azonenbergtrying to build a 5-port 16-element 8-bit register file23:22
azonenbergout of 16x1 bit dual port ram23:22
azonenbergnow that was fun :p23:22
berndjisn't there an O(2^n)  [n = # of ports] size factor?23:22
azonenbergYou can do linear in number of ports23:22
berndjor is it not quite as bad as that23:22
azonenbergif you only have one write port23:22
azonenbergMake N copies of the array, where N is the number of independent read ports23:23
azonenbergwrites go to everything23:23
azonenbergthen each read port addresses its own independent image of the memory23:23
azonenbergthats what i did in both my triple and 5-ported reg files23:23
berndjyeah, i guess i was thinking of n-write-ports files23:23
azonenbergoh, n-writes?23:23
Action: azonenberg shudders23:23
azonenbergno thanks23:23
azonenbergBut in a classic pipelined cpu architecture, you are reading all over the place23:23
azonenbergbut only writing during the writeback stage23:23
berndjwell, pentiums have for years been retiring at least two writes per clock23:24
azonenbergx86 is a horse of a different color23:24
azonenbergi said classic23:24
berndjafaik & iirc & ianal etc23:24
azonenbergas in simple risc23:24
berndjtrue enough23:24
azonenbergnot multiplie-issue superscalar23:24
azonenbergmy goal in these designs is minimal gate count and relatively high clock frequencies23:25
berndjx86 is why there are now more transistors than ants23:25
berndjlast i looked there was a ia64 with > 1 gigatransistor23:25
berndjmostly cache though23:26
azonenbergWoudlnt surprise me, gpus are up there already23:26
azonenbergLet me put it this way, my 8-bit arch uses 122 flipflops, 545 LUTs, and 312 spartan-3a slices23:26
berndj(probably rather ARM's fault rather than intel's - just due to number of cores out there)23:26
azonenbergwhich is under 20% of a 200k gate spartan-3a (this is equivalent to about 35k gates)23:27
azonenbergClocks at upwards of 100 mhz in a spartan-3a -5 speed fpga23:27
berndjwow, you could have built that in 1979 then!23:27
azonenberg16x 8-bit registers23:27
berndj(but not at 100MHz)23:27
azonenberg8-bit memory address space (i.e. 256 bytes)23:27
azonenbergand 16-bit IO address space using pairs of registers23:28
berndjdo you think we'll ever run out of 64-bit address space?23:28
azonenbergThe idea was a design that could fit *anywhere*23:28
azonenbergeven in the smallest fpga xilinx still makes23:28
azonenbergand no, i do not23:28
azonenbergWe may eventually have >2^64 bytes of memory23:28
azonenbergper system23:28
azonenbergbut we will be using distributed memory message passing architectures23:28
azonenberg2^32 per core is a little cramped but 2^48 is probably enouhg23:29
berndji wouldn't either, but # bits is roughly linear with time, according to moore's law23:29
azonenbergby the time you need 256GB of memory you should not be using an SMP anymore23:29
azonenbergit doesnt scale23:29
berndjso 64 bits should last (at least) twice as long as 32 bits did23:29
azonenberglook at blue gene for an extreme example23:29
azonenbergmy school's BG/L has 32768 compute nodes each with 512MB of 1GB of memory23:29
azonenbergor 1GB*23:30
azonenbergthese are 32 bit procs23:30
azonenbergaddressing i think 12T of total ram23:30
berndjnice toy!23:30
azonenbergBecause its not all on one compute node23:30
berndjcan it play tic tac toe?23:30
azonenbergSo thats where i see things heading23:30
azonenberglol, no idea - all i've used it for is matrix multiplication during the class :p23:30
berndjyeah, NUMA ftw23:30
azonenbergall of my HPC since then has been on my cuda cluster23:30
azonenbergMy current preferred arch for HPC is a NUMA system consisting of a bunch of SMP systems with a relatively fast multicore CPU (i7 or similar) and one or more GPUs each23:31
azonenbergconnected by sockets23:31
azonenbergthis is a deeper hierarchy than needed for some project23:32
azonenbergsometimes a bunch of powerpc over MPI is all you need23:32
azonenbergiow, bg/l or successors23:32
azonenbergIn any case, if you are designing a reasonable architecture23:33
azonenbergyou should never attempt to fit that much ram onto one address space23:33
azonenbergUse hundreds of TB of ram by all means23:33
azonenbergBut not SMP23:33
azonenberguse explicit NUMA aka message passing23:33
azonenbergand keep your data local23:34
azonenbergpreferably in L1 cache23:34
berndjhehe, one of my pie in the sky dreams is a attaxx machine that has TB of ram23:34
azonenbergMine is a little more reasonable23:35
azonenbergonly $6K and change23:35
berndjit would basically be just a counter, some combinatorial logic, and huge continents of ram23:35
berndjbecause r is for random23:35
azonenbergI did that workup a while ago just to see what it'd cost me to build lol23:36
azonenbergmaybe in five or ten years... :p23:36
berndji'm really sad that x86 has caused the demise of almost everything else23:37
azonenbergI like mips a lot23:37
berndjdec's alpha was ahead of its time, for example23:37
berndj[where] does mips still get used, other than in undergrad CS courses?23:38
azonenbergi didnt say it was popular :p23:38
azonenbergBut Its all over the place in embedded network hardware23:38
azonenbergrouting, switching, set-top boxes23:38
azonenbergdsl/cable modems23:38
azonenbergthe majority of those are SoCs based on mips cpus plus external hardware23:38
berndjoh yes. i remember cisco use[d] them23:39
azonenbergpic32 is the only end-user marketed chip with a mips onboard afaik23:39
azonenbergi tried to just buy like a raw mips cpu23:39
azonenbergcouldnt find any23:39
azonenbergand pic32 doesnt have external memory buses23:39
azonenbergso i said, screw that23:39
azonenbergi'm building my own23:39
azonenbergas soon as i work out this pipeline hazard and add a DRAM controller (and move to spartan-6 as the -3a i'm using is kinda cramped)23:39
azonenbergi will have something pretty nice23:39
azonenbergi plan to go multicore23:40
azonenbergdual ~80 mhz 32-bit mips, maybe 64MB of sdram23:40
azonenbergmake an uber-low-power netbook23:40
azonenbergwe're talking something that is cold to the touch when in operation23:40
azonenbergall passively cooled, no fans23:40
azonenbergjust a nice metal case that doubles as a heatsink23:40
azonenbergthrow in two 5000mAh li-po packs and you're good for 24 hours of operation23:41
berndjPV keyboard23:41
azonenbergThe keyboard will be a dell netbook keyboard i found on ebay, most likley23:42
azonenbergif and when i get the time to reverse engineer the matrix pinout23:42
berndjdid you build your first LED flasher when you were, like, 2 years old?23:43
berndji wish i had your focus / work ethic23:43
azonenbergberndj: no, i started that when i was around 1023:44
azonenbergstarted coding in c when i was 9 but didnt get serious until 1123:44
berndjlol, only off by 7dB23:44
azonenbergfor the ifrst year or two it was just fooling around here and there23:44
azonenbergdidnt put a lot of time into it23:44
azonenbergAnd lol, a lot of people say that23:44
azonenbergThere are costs to it, though23:44
berndji know :(23:44
azonenbergfor example, people expect you to be perfect23:45
azonenbergthey have higher standards than for anyone else23:45
berndji started programming only slightly older than you did23:45
berndjoh, i was reading up on DNQ, and it looks like it might be kitchen-accessible to make if you're crazy enough to try23:47
berndjstart with mothballs23:47
berndjbut i'm still hoping for something less hairy23:48
berndjaround 250nm lots of possibilities open up, but another critical one closes: glass-based optics23:48
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