| azonenberg | Got busy and didnt have time to do any work today... hoping to do a test of slow-etching copper (for better repeatability) tomorrow | 01:38 |
|---|---|---|
| bart416 | So alive on this beautifull afternoon azonenberg ? | 11:43 |
| azonenberg_work | Lol, yep | 11:48 |
| azonenberg_work | But it's 0800 for me | 11:48 |
| azonenberg_work | just got in to the office :p | 11:48 |
| bart416 | :D | 11:48 |
| bart416 | I'm halfway through my ARM Sitara technical documents! | 11:49 |
| azonenberg_work | Yay lol | 11:49 |
| bart416 | Also, I was thinking | 11:50 |
| bart416 | Can you evaporate copper on paper? | 11:51 |
| azonenberg_work | I dont think paper is UHV compatible | 12:11 |
| azonenberg_work | It'd probably outgas | 12:11 |
| azonenberg_work | also, the metal vapor is quite hot | 12:12 |
| azonenberg_work | the surface has to be able to handle what's quite literally boiling metal condensing on it | 12:12 |
| bart416 | yeah but it's not much | 12:12 |
| azonenberg_work | It won't burn, due to lack of air, but might char | 12:12 |
| bart416 | yeah | 12:12 |
| azonenberg_work | and in the process contaminate your chamber | 12:12 |
| bart416 | that's what I'm worrying about | 12:12 |
| bart416 | If it would only char it'd be perfect | 12:12 |
| azonenberg_work | All of the pyrolysis products would make a huge mess though | 12:13 |
| bart416 | yeah, again that's my worry | 12:14 |
| bart416 | But it solves the hard to get rid off polymer | 12:14 |
| bart416 | Though using glass as substrate would also be nice | 12:14 |
| bart416 | Going to see if I can use the materials lab at college | 12:16 |
| bart416 | If I do I could also use the xray equipment to test the result | 12:16 |
| azonenberg_work | What exacly is your goal? | 13:14 |
| bart416 | to make a multi layer pcb | 13:15 |
| bart416 | heh | 13:15 |
| azonenberg_work | on paper? | 13:15 |
| bart416 | Was just considering paper for the simple reason that it's easy to chemically remove | 13:16 |
| azonenberg_work | Hmm | 13:16 |
| azonenberg_work | What about your ILD? | 13:16 |
| azonenberg_work | You could use blank FR4 as the substrate if its vacuum compatible (dont think it is though) | 13:16 |
| bart416 | What the hell do you mean by ILD | 13:17 |
| bart416 | I've been trying to figure that out for days | 13:17 |
| bart416 | We're not big on acronyms in non-English speaking countries | 13:17 |
| azonenberg_work | inter-layer dielectric | 13:18 |
| bart416 | SU-8 | 13:18 |
| bart416 | I looked up the properties further | 13:18 |
| bart416 | It's perfect for this | 13:18 |
| bart416 | Can do thick layers | 13:18 |
| bart416 | good mechanical and chemical properties | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | So you want to do su-8 on paper? | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | Why not silicon | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | get a cheap solar wafer, $50 per 25 pack on ebay | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | put down one layer of su-8 over that | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | And do you have what it takes to develop/coat it? | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | And do you have a source for it? | 13:19 |
| bart416 | I just need a substrate that I can dispose of after I'm done | 13:19 |
| azonenberg_work | I've never heard of an amateur attempting it | 13:19 |
| bart416 | SU-8 can be done by standard contact lithography equipment | 13:20 |
| azonenberg_work | What i mean is, can you get hold of it and the developer? | 13:20 |
| bart416 | Through college, sure :| | 13:21 |
| bart416 | I've placed weirder orders for chemicals than that :S | 13:21 |
| azonenberg_work | Lol | 13:21 |
| bart416 | Would be amazed if I couldn't get it | 13:22 |
| azonenberg_work | I see | 13:22 |
| bart416 | Ever ordered a large canister of liquid oxygen and a bag of KNO3 on the same day? | 13:22 |
| azonenberg_work | Um... nope | 13:22 |
| bart416 | I did :P | 13:22 |
| azonenberg_work | My school is a little skittish about letting students get access to stuff | 13:22 |
| azonenberg_work | most i was ever offered was some NaOH crystals | 13:22 |
| bart416 | Heh | 13:22 |
| bart416 | As long as the cost isn't too high they don't care | 13:23 |
| bart416 | If it's cheap they won't even charge you | 13:23 |
| azonenberg_work | you can do an lot in a lab but they dont like you sneaking it out | 13:23 |
| bart416 | Like if you need a few cheap transistors or some cheap chemicals (like developer for more common photoresist for pcb etching) they'll just give it to you the next day most of the time | 13:23 |
| bart416 | And if you ask for the cost "nevermind" | 13:23 |
| azonenberg_work | lol nice | 13:24 |
| bart416 | Though larger things like a scope or power supply are harder to get through the paperstack (you get college discount eh :P ) | 13:27 |
| bart416 | But it happens | 13:27 |
| azonenberg_work | lol nice | 13:27 |
| bart416 | Most expensive thing somebody got through was an 8000 euro R&S scope | 13:27 |
| bart416 | somebody tried an even more expensive scope once but got busted by taxes :( | 13:28 |
| azonenberg_work | Lol | 13:28 |
| azonenberg_work | What school is this? :P | 13:28 |
| azonenberg_work | And the scope i plan to buy later this week is http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000d/ds1102d/ | 13:29 |
| azonenberg_work | around 900 USD after educational discount | 13:29 |
| bart416 | I'm looking at picking up the 50 MHz rigol | 13:29 |
| bart416 | and unlocking it | 13:29 |
| azonenberg_work | the MSO or just the analog capture? | 13:30 |
| azonenberg_work | this one has 16 digital inputs | 13:30 |
| bart416 | analog | 13:30 |
| bart416 | I just think it's not worth it | 13:30 |
| bart416 | If I were to get a mixed signal I'd pay 200 USD more and get the agilent | 13:30 |
| azonenberg_work | i see | 13:30 |
| bart416 | Just a matter of reliability | 13:31 |
| bart416 | But actually going to wait until rigol responds to my inquiry | 13:32 |
| bart416 | and until after the flea market :P | 13:32 |
| azonenberg_work | i see | 13:32 |
| bart416 | It's just if you can get an agilent for $200 more, on $1000 it's not going to matter | 13:33 |
| bart416 | especially with the current exchange rates | 13:33 |
| bart416 | + don't you do anything except messing with electronics? | 13:34 |
| Action: bart416 pokes azonenberg and wonders where he gets the $1000 USD budget | 13:40 | |
| azonenberg_work | Nope, i dont really :P | 14:18 |
| azonenberg_work | Well, that and coding | 14:18 |
| azonenberg_work | but that doesnt need hardware | 14:18 |
| azonenberg_work | And re budget, i finally got paid for the summer :P | 14:18 |
| azonenberg_work | and i need an oscilloscope so i figured, why not | 14:19 |
| bart416 | Heh | 14:19 |
| bart416 | Then again, I probably earned more than you during the summer, just sucks that I have to blow it all on things cause my parents turned greedy >_> | 14:19 |
| bart416 | Also SU-8 has adhession problems to glass | 14:19 |
| azonenberg_work | lol i see | 14:19 |
| azonenberg_work | Hmm | 14:19 |
| azonenberg_work | Can you use a thin adhesion layer of something else? | 14:20 |
| azonenberg_work | I mean, HMDS might work for starters | 14:20 |
| bart416 | Yeah they suggest it in the brochure | 14:20 |
| bart416 | Also 1mm of SU-8 will survive 40 kV :P | 14:21 |
| bart416 | (Atleast) | 14:22 |
| azonenberg_work | Nice | 14:22 |
| bart416 | I have a feeling it'll do for PCB design :') | 14:22 |
| bart416 | Density is a bit higher than water | 14:23 |
| bart416 | And doesn't start to degrade until about 350°C | 14:23 |
| azonenberg_work | Nice | 14:24 |
| azonenberg_work | Did i add you to the googlecode page yet btw? | 14:24 |
| azonenberg_work | *user list | 14:25 |
| azonenberg_work | if not, PM me your google code email and i'll set you up with access for wiki etc so you can document your work when you actually start running experiments | 14:25 |
| bart416 | I'll first see if it's financially viable | 14:28 |
| bart416 | Nobody publishes the price of SU-8 | 14:28 |
| bart416 | So I'm starting to have fears | 14:28 |
| bart416 | They suggest AP300 | 14:38 |
| bart416 | Have you tried that azonenberg ? | 14:38 |
| bart416 | The main problem would actually be the top and bottom surface | 14:44 |
| bart416 | Though I guess using normal resist for this wouldn't be much of a problem | 14:45 |
| bart416 | cross linked SU-8 is fairly resistant to acetone anyway | 14:45 |
| bart416 | also azonenberg_work http://www.homalite.com/cr39.htm | 14:45 |
| azonenberg_work | Cross linked SU-8 is pretty much indestructible from what i hear :P | 14:50 |
| azonenberg_work | It practically takes piranha to remove | 14:50 |
| bart416 | they report etch rates of 1µm/minute | 14:52 |
| bart416 | lol | 14:52 |
| azonenberg_work | 1um or nm? | 14:53 |
| bart416 | um | 14:53 |
| azonenberg_work | Thats pretty high actually | 14:53 |
| bart416 | Using chemicals specifically manufactured to etch SU8 | 14:53 |
| bart416 | But better rates are achieved using O2 + F radicals plasma | 14:54 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, you know the price of SU-8? | 15:00 |
| bart416 | $600 / liter o_O | 15:00 |
| bart416 | This would make for very expensive PCBs | 15:07 |
| bart416 | Not worth considering | 15:07 |
| bart416 | Need something cheaper | 15:13 |
| azonenberg_work | Lol | 15:21 |
| azonenberg_work | Yeah, i figured it would be something like that | 15:21 |
| azonenberg_work | And do you plan to use O2 + F plasma in your living room? :P | 15:21 |
| bart416 | lol, no | 15:27 |
| bart416 | But I don't need to etch crosslinked SU-8 anyway | 15:27 |
| bart416 | Even if I were to use it | 15:27 |
| bart416 | What I won't cause $600 / liter would give a bad turn over rate | 15:29 |
| bart416 | mhhh, other idea | 15:30 |
| bart416 | coat plastic with Cu | 15:30 |
| bart416 | Should be a lot cheaper | 15:33 |
| bart416 | + I can etch both acrylics and copper easily | 15:34 |
| bart416 | And without damaging the other | 15:34 |
| bart416 | And pressing them together is easy as well | 15:34 |
| bart416 | oh btw, if anybody needs anything from springer, sciencedirect or web of knowledge | 15:36 |
| bart416 | now is the time | 15:36 |
| bart416 | damn the new search system they employ sucks o_O | 15:43 |
| azonenberg_work | plastic coated with Cu was my suggestion too | 16:24 |
| azonenberg_work | su-8 is not cheap :P | 16:24 |
| bart416 | what would you suggest | 16:26 |
| bart416 | electroless plating? | 16:26 |
| bart416 | Also, you suggested glass :P | 16:27 |
| bart416 | Not acrylics | 16:27 |
| azonenberg_work | I had suggested FR4 originally | 17:32 |
| azonenberg_work | re plating, not sure | 17:32 |
| azonenberg_work | evaporation probably wont work for it | 17:33 |
| bart416 | FR4 phenolic seems like something that'd be horrible to etch though | 17:41 |
| bart416 | That's why I'd use normal acrylic | 17:45 |
| bart416 | etch holes | 17:46 |
| bart416 | apply photoresist | 17:46 |
| bart416 | expose | 17:46 |
| bart416 | develop | 17:46 |
| bart416 | remove unexposed | 17:46 |
| bart416 | add electroless plating solution | 17:47 |
| bart416 | apply palladium ions to make plastic conductive | 17:47 |
| bart416 | plate | 17:48 |
| bart416 | remove resist | 17:48 |
| bart416 | Meh, I need to go and talk to a chem professor anyway sooner or later | 17:49 |
| bart416 | Or I could ask my ex-girlfriend :| | 17:59 |
| bart416 | But I so do not want to do that | 17:59 |
| azonenberg_work | You dont etch FR4 | 18:03 |
| azonenberg_work | You use the FR4 as the *substrate* | 18:03 |
| bart416 | Yeah but then I have only a single layer | 18:03 |
| azonenberg_work | Then use something else (details TBD) as the ILD | 18:03 |
| bart416 | that I can mount actual devices on | 18:03 |
| bart416 | Removing FR4 would be horribly complicated | 18:03 |
| azonenberg_work | like i said, you dont remove it | 18:04 |
| azonenberg_work | you'd drill those holes by hand | 18:04 |
| azonenberg_work | or CNC even | 18:04 |
| azonenberg_work | they'd be huge, the equivalent of a TSV | 18:04 |
| bart416 | Sub millimeter holes are hard, even for CNC machines... | 18:04 |
| bart416 | especially if you're looking at 500+ of them | 18:04 |
| azonenberg_work | you dont do 500+ | 18:04 |
| bart416 | Actually considering my current design for this damned arm that's about what I need | 18:05 |
| azonenberg_work | lol | 18:05 |
| azonenberg_work | what are you making? | 18:05 |
| bart416 | Easy enough for a professional plant | 18:05 |
| azonenberg_work | oh, did i mention i soldered a 5-ball CSP BGA last night? | 18:05 |
| bart416 | Ever tried a 500 pin BGA on a double layer pcb? | 18:05 |
| azonenberg_work | 520 x 570 micron grid with one extra ball in the middle, all 200 micron diameter | 18:05 |
| azonenberg_work | and nope | 18:05 |
| azonenberg_work | this was my first attempt at a bga | 18:06 |
| azonenberg_work | It appears to have been successful so i'll probably try larger in the future | 18:06 |
| azonenberg_work | i have some 11x11 0.8mm XBGA | 18:06 |
| azonenberg_work | would be cool to get them to work | 18:06 |
| bart416 | I'm starting to become as insane as one of my analog circuit design professors | 18:08 |
| bart416 | I like things that don't work and figuring out how to get them to work | 18:08 |
| azonenberg_work | lol | 18:16 |
| azonenberg_work | And i like building stuff | 18:16 |
| azonenberg_work | like, all-out building stuff :P | 18:16 |
| azonenberg_work | from the kernel to the CPU RTL to the wafer fab | 18:16 |
| bart416 | Heh | 18:59 |
| bart416 | I'd love to do that but we don't have the facilities goes too much money goes to stupid business and humanities | 18:59 |
| bart416 | yes business and humanities get all the scholarships for studying abroad and research grants >_> | 19:00 |
| bart416 | Electronics gets less for research than business gets for rewards to give to people for their surveys... | 19:00 |
| azonenberg_work | Lol | 19:02 |
| azonenberg_work | And RPI just built a new athletics facility and performing arts center | 19:02 |
| azonenberg_work | the old ones were fine | 19:02 |
| bart416 | Our college decided to make a new artificial grass soccer field | 19:03 |
| bart416 | You know, the type you find in professional sports stadiums | 19:03 |
| bart416 | Then again, two years ago they did spend money on something useful | 19:03 |
| bart416 | A new library | 19:03 |
| bart416 | heh | 19:03 |
| bart416 | Believe me, it was necessary | 19:04 |
| bart416 | But yeah, electronics department had to beg to buy a new network analyzer | 19:04 |
| bart416 | well, it sort of costs the same as a new small building but yah :P | 19:05 |
| bart416 | But yeah, 50 GHz network analyzers don't come cheap :P | 19:08 |
| bart416 | So they bought it together with the university | 19:09 |
| bart416 | Though technically starting from within a few weeks we're part of the university and not the college anymore | 19:09 |
| bart416 | heh | 19:09 |
| bart416 | They moved engineering to university cause they didn't think it was right that a college does masters degrees >_> | 19:09 |
| berndj | bart416, dj delorie makes his own multilayer boards, afaik he uses some sort of hacked laminator to get the layers together | 20:49 |
| bart416 | any website? | 20:49 |
| berndj | www.delorie.com, but i don't think i've seen much doc on his process - rather pics of the results | 20:50 |
| berndj | are you on the homebrew_pcbs yahoo group? seems like lots of clever people hang out there | 20:51 |
| --- Tue Aug 2 2011 | 00:00 | |
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