#homecmos IRC log for Monday, 2011-07-25

azonenberg_labRunning off another test pattern now01:05
azonenberg_labThi is a real one, two nested spirals01:05
azonenberg_labto be put on a metal layer01:06
azonenberg_labPass condition - both lines continuous end to end and not shorted01:06
azonenberg_labI'm doing an inverted version now just to see how it turns out01:06
azonenberg_labThough electrically its useless :p01:07
azonenberg_labnext die done tonight will be nyan cat :P01:07
CIA-67homecmos r106 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Today's lab notes02:21
azonenberg20um square pixels02:27
azonenbergThis was overetched, it looks02:27
azonenbergthe areas under photoresist (raised) should be copper, the green means they got undercut by the etch02:28
azonenbergkristianpaul: World's smallest nyan cat? :P02:49
kristianpaulyeah, that too ;)02:49
kristianpaulyou have zoomed pic from overal body?02:50
kristianpaulstill look nice tought, at least it looks squared02:51
kristianpauli think had no been discused yet,but do you have probes/robotics arm to measure and wire a future homebew cmos..?02:54
kristianpaul(sorry if i used wrong names, but i try to get understood first)02:55
azonenbergThis is 100x02:55
kristianpaullovelly :-)02:55
azonenberghe's around 600 microns long02:55
azonenbergand 200 high02:55
azonenbergAnd yes, i do have probes02:56
azonenbergthree micromanipulator-brand micropositioners (model 110 and 210, same except for left/right hand) and a wentworth labs probing station02:56
azonenbergThe probe station was acquired used from ebay and i'm in the process of reconditioning it now02:56
kristianpaulbut not all folks, is very expensive i guess?..02:56
azonenbergIt cost $700 on ebay02:56
kristianpaulah, well02:57
azonenbergYou can do even better for large process sizes02:57
azonenbergused low-precision micropositioners can be had for $100ish each02:57
azonenberghook them up under a stereo microscope and you have enough power for most stuff02:57
kristianpauloh, cheap (micropositioners)02:57
azonenbergYeah, the probe station (including microscope) and vacuum chuck was the expensive part of the system02:57
azonenbergBut a guy i'm doing research with paid for it02:58
azonenbergI wasnt gonna say no02:58
kristianpaulnice, you have a bom and budgect right? (sorry i havent looked to depth in the repo)02:58
azonenbergI do not, planning to draw it up as i go02:58
azonenbergSome stuff is homebrewed like the spin coater02:58
azonenbergplans will be posted at some point02:58
azonenbergothers were scavenged from ebay and such02:58
kristianpaulsure, no hury02:58
azonenbergAlmost nothing was bought full price except for chemicals like photoresist02:58
kristianpaulyou think is okay this cat be added to qi-hardware news for next month?02:59
kristianpaulwhat are the license of pics btw? :-)02:59
azonenbergUnless stated otherwise, any photos of my work are cc-by-sa02:59
azonenbergAnd sure, feel free to use it03:00
azonenbergsend me a link03:00
kristianpaulwolfspraul: just in time !03:01
kristianpaulwolfspraul: check the awesome cat by azonenberg http://i.imgur.com/uPN5h.jpg03:02
wolfspraulwait wait, catching up03:06
kristianpaul"Andrew from #homecmos project had improved a lot the process for making homebew CMOS from a lithographic projection, at irc channel he brought last results from his lab, as he quouted "World's smallest nyan cat" checkout some pics:"03:12
kristianpaulazonenberg: is okay for you?03:12
azonenbergI havent gotten working COMS, perhaps say homebrew MEMS03:12
wolfspraulnice picture, although I am not clear what it shows or means :-)03:12
azonenbergwolfspraul: I'm testing my process for patterning metal layers03:12
wolfspraulno scale btw03:12
azonenbergWasn't entirely successful but its getting closer03:13
azonenbergThe lines are 20 microns03:13
azonenbergentire cat is 600 head to tail03:13
wolfsprauloh it's a cat!03:13
wolfspraulfinally I got it :-)03:13
wolfspraulkristianpaul: since the pic has no scale, if you write a news item please write the size in the text03:13
kristianpaulyes sure03:14
kristianpauljust waiting azonenberg aproval to save that to whe wiki03:14
azonenbergwolfspraul: not just any cat03:14
azonenbergNyan Cat03:14
azonenbergwolfspraul: yeah, this was a quick shot with my point-and-shoot camera03:14
azonenbergthe nice calibrated one is a pain to set up since it onyl works on windows so i have to drag the big laptop over which has windows VMs on it03:15
azonenbergthe handheld camera i can just hold up to the eyepiece03:15
azonenbergkristianpaul: go for it03:17
kristianpaulazonenberg: here is the link http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-0103:43
azonenbergThere's a slight inconsistency there03:44
azonenbergThe CAD screenshot was for a mask on my 5um process03:44
azonenbergi actually made it on the 2003:44
azonenbergso all dimensions are 4x what the screenshot shows03:44
azonenbergah nvm, you got that in the caption03:45
azonenbergAnd, not that it matters too much, but my project isnt technically copyleft03:48
azonenbergBSD is gpl-compatible but doesnt require that you release modified versions under the same license03:49
kristianpaul(copyleft) yeah, well...just ignore the "branding" :p03:52
wolfspraulazonenberg: that would be the first time that someone who is more free than copyleft feels excluded by copyleft :-)03:54
wolfspraulmy mind hurts thinking about that03:54
wolfspraulno don't worry03:54
wolfspraulI am super cool about public domain, bsd, apache03:54
azonenbergYeah, its just that i dont like copyleft because it forces you to use the same license03:54
wolfspraulI think this copyright stuff is a distraction03:55
azonenbergIf i'm making a design open, i make it OPEN03:55
azonenbergas few restrictions as i feasibly can03:55
wolfspraulwell yes, without wanting to start this now, but you know that the copyleft people believe that the one thing you should not be allowed to do is to remove freedoms from others03:55
wolfsprauland I have to say if I look around what companies are doing, I can clearly see that the ones that strategically prefer BSD/Apache over GPL all in fact have in mind to not give back too much :-)03:56
Action: kristianpaul likes a lot public domain03:56
wolfspraulI have no idea how this plays out over decades, we'll see03:56
azonenbergwolfspraul: And what do you think the odds are that intel is going to steal anything from my processes? :P03:57
wolfspraulmaybe GPL projects are in fact better able to preserve the collaborative and 'give back' culture and thus the project03:57
azonenbergI'm only like 30 years behind them...03:57
azonenbergmaybe 4003:57
wolfspraulfor example in a company, the business model is very important, but the company culture even more so03:57
wolfspraulpublic domain is great!03:57
wolfspraulbsd/apache - great03:57
wolfspraulif copyleft excludes or is incompatible with those, I would stop using it03:58
wolfspraulbut of course that's not the case and never will be03:58
azonenbergNo, copyleft just assimilates them03:58
azonenbergonce i use a GPL library in my code, my code is GPL too03:58
azonenbergand the virus spreads03:58
azonenbergBut if I use a BSD licensed library in my code i can keep it under whatever license it was03:58
wolfspraulwell like I said :-) GPL tries to protect the values (freedom) of the project first, then the technicalities03:59
azonenbergbecause the GPL is a weapon03:59
wolfspraulif you compare with companies, I could imagine that it will be more successful in the long run. Not to force anybody into it, but to create a healthy ecosystem.03:59
azonenbergIt's used by RMS in his holy war to eliminate proprietary software04:00
azonenbergBy comparison, I dont think proprietary software is *wrong*04:00
azonenbergI just think it will lose out to an equivalent free project if they compete on an even footing04:00
azonenbergjust by market forces (price and customizability)04:00
wolfspraulnot sure, but there are many details here, marketing power etc.04:00
wolfspraulI'm not sure about 'weapon', then you can call everything a weapon.04:01
azonenbergI'm pretty sure RMS has used the term himself04:01
wolfspraulGPL protects the collaborative culture above all.04:01
wolfspraultry this thought experiment, compare 2 companies04:01
wolfspraul1) good business model, bad company culture04:01
wolfspraul2) good business model, good company culture04:01
wolfspraul(let's leave out what 'good' or 'bad' means)04:02
wolfspraulthe company culture will be more important imho04:02
wolfspraulcan't be changed later04:02
wolfspraulso yeah, GPL forces to give back04:02
wolfspraulthat's the idea04:02
wolfsprauland you don't have to use it, of course04:02
wolfspraulApple for example systematically eradicates any small trace of GPL left anywhere in their ecosystem. If GPL is a 'weapon', then that is surely the 'revenge', no?04:03
azonenbergLol, thats apple for you04:03
wolfspraulno I think they do the right thing, they just value their own company culture over the GPL share-back culture04:03
azonenbergProtect the user from everything at all cost04:04
azonenbergEven freedom04:04
wolfsprauland very systematically :-)04:04
wolfspraulcompany culture is most important04:04
wolfspraulso the GPL is eradicated like a bug...04:04
wolfspraulwho gives you more freedom? an Apple OS on your MacBook, or Debian on your notebook?04:04
wolfspraulmaybe still the MacBook, to most people, because it's easier to use :-)04:05
wolfspraulso let's compare again in 10 years04:05
azonenbergI havent run any OSes but debian and ubuntu since 200804:05
azonenbergSwitching over to debian from ubuntu since its going downhill04:06
wolfspraulI agree, though I never ran Ubuntu I think.04:06
azonenbergThough i still keep some winblows VMs around by necessity04:06
azonenbergmy microscope camera doesnt have linux drivers yet04:06
azonenbergme and a friend are working on reversing the USB protocol04:06
azonenbergdont have anything working yet04:06
wolfspraulbut the Debian slowness is irritating, so sometimes I think about Fedora...04:06
azonenbergWell, i dont like reinstalling servers every few months lol04:07
azonenbergI like them to be rock solid04:07
azonenbergAnd given how much i virtualize, my laptop is practicalyl a server too04:07
azonenberg90% of my apps run in VMs04:07
azonenbergSo i can use a more bleeding-edge distro on the VMs04:07
azonenbergBut i want the host to be stable04:07
wolfspraulwhich VM software do you use?04:09
azonenbergVirtualBox when possible but i use vmware on one system out of necessity04:09
azonenbergvirtualbox's USB support is subpar and i use that system for a lot of usb stuff04:09
azonenbergI simply cannot tolerate my device having packets dropped halfway through a firmware update04:10
azonenbergvirtualbox bricked a board for me once04:10
azonenbergthough i was able to recover with some soldering and an in-circuit reflash04:10
wolfspraulI've used everything over the years. VMware in the 90's, then Parallels I think (when it came out as a cheaper alternative), then VirtualBox, now KVM04:13
azonenbergThe worst part is that said board was my programming adapter lol04:13
wolfspraulmaybe some others in between, forgot :-)04:13
azonenbergmy PIC programmer had gotten bricked and the chip on it with bad firmware was a PIC04:13
azonenbergSo i had a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem until i found another programmer04:13
azonenbergsoldered it onto the test port and reflashed the MCU in circuit04:14
bart416My first programmer was a +5V -5V power supply, a bunch of resistors, diodes and transistors06:53
bart416For an 805106:53
bart416Aaaargh, I want to try something but I don't have the equipment for it :(19:48
azonenberg_workWhat in particular?19:48
bart416I think I figured out a way to blast a single layer of atoms of a sample using a laser19:49
azonenberg_workIs this like reverse epitaxy or something?19:50
bart416You deposit a single layer of a crystal on the target19:52
bart416The crystal binds to the uper layer19:53
bart416Cause you know what the crystal is you can calculate how much energy is required to break it off per surface area19:53
bart416To keep the sample clean you need to use an electric field to draw the ionised gas away19:55
bart416Now I wouldn't use a real laser anyway19:55
bart416Too hard to control19:55
azonenberg_workWhat would you use?19:55
bart416A fast scanning electron beam19:55
bart416You could use a high powered SEM for it essentially19:55
azonenberg_workSo you're almost sputtering19:56
bart416Then you can go over it with a STM or whatever you wish to use and then rip off the next layer19:56
bart416and repeat19:56
bart416yes, sputtering19:56
bart416But destructive :P19:56
azonenberg_workPerhaps a FIB would be better for that19:56
azonenberg_workThats basically how FIBs cut19:56
azonenberg_workBut i dont think they can do atomically smooth cuts19:57
azonenberg_workusually resolution is a few nm19:57
bart416That's why you deposit the layer of crystal first19:57
bart416you have the crystal bind with the layer of atoms under it19:57
bart416So you can drag it along with the crystal19:57
bart416That's the core of the idea19:58
bart416If you just throw your laser, electron or ion beam at it you won't get much out of it19:58
bart416But I don't even have access to a SEM :(20:01
bart416also azonenberg how flat is your average wafer these days?20:08
azonenberg_workAnd the ones i get are polished to a 5A surface roughness20:19
azonenberg_workPlanarity across the entire wafer is in the tens of microns i think?20:19
azonenberg_workMaybe even better20:19
azonenberg_workCheck specs on mtixtl.com20:20
bart416For my atomic circuit idea I need as flat as possible surface possibly coated in gold20:24
bart416Mhhhh, diamond could work...20:29
nathan7Hi, all20:51
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