#homecmos IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-06-28

azonenbergIn any case I now have something like 60 dies in my sample tray in varying stages of processing lol00:10
azonenbergI expect to hit at least 100 before getting good yields00:10
azonenberg_labSo, lets see... first thing on the todo list00:27
azonenberg_labMake finer probe tips00:27
azonenberg_labGrr... getting really sharp points is hard01:30
azonenberg_labI'm close, i can feel it01:30
azonenberg_labBut i'm having trouble going submicron01:30
Action: Harold_parker crosses fingers01:59
azonenberg_labthis is a new record, i cant tell how sharp ye02:07
azonenberg_labgonna need the sem lol02:08
azonenberg_laboptical images coming up in a sec02:08
azonenberg_labIts too small to see under my scope lol02:11
azonenberg_labthe tip just fades out02:11
Harold_parkertoo small without SEM02:17
Harold_parkerthats a good sign :D02:17
Harold_parkeryou doing electrolysis or arcing?02:17
azonenbergAnd i think this one is barely submicron02:22
azonenbergi *think* i can see the tip in the camera02:22
azonenbergWhich would put it around maybe 800nm?02:22
azonenbergThe tip looks to be around 1.05um diameter02:26
azonenbergi cant see the very end02:26
azonenbergcurvature radius is probably around 500-700nm02:26
wolfspraulazonenberg_lab: hey just a heads up I showed your "Intel 4004 replica" project to 2 guys from Intel Labs yesterday02:41
wolfspraulI told them they should find someone inside Intel to support it :-) (nothing will come out of this I'm sure, but they liked it and took lots of notes...)02:41
azonenberg_labwolfspraul: Lol, nice02:42
Harold_parkerfuckk azonenberg that is beautiful!!!!!!03:07
azonenberg_labHarold_parker: ty :)03:08
Harold_parkerfuckin eh man :D03:09
Harold_parkerhow many runs did it take to get that beauty?03:09
azonenberg_labA couple, maybe ten03:09
azonenberg_labAll were <5um03:09
azonenberg_labthis is the sharpest i've gotten yet03:09
azonenberg_labThe next step is a digitally controlled power supply03:10
azonenberg_labto automatically cut off power right when it detects the maximum sharpness right after the end breaks off03:10
Harold_parkerhmmm, not quite sure i follow?03:11
Harold_parkerin case of an accident?03:11
azonenberg_labThe etching is fastest right at the surface03:11
azonenberg_laband there's a thicker part below that03:11
Harold_parkergot it03:11
azonenberg_labSo right when it snaps you're at max sharpness03:11
azonenberg_labBut if you etch any further it dulls03:11
Harold_parkergot it03:11
Harold_parkerand then it blunts03:11
Harold_parkernice :)03:12
azonenberg_labI've seen papers that did cutoff in 500ns03:12
Harold_parkerman awesome03:12
azonenberg_laband hit 3.5nm points03:12
Harold_parkerthats awesome03:12
azonenberg_labI dont want that sharp lol03:12
azonenberg_labI want maybe 200nm03:12
Harold_parkerlol indeed03:12
azonenberg_labBut i also want to be able to dial in "give me a point of this size"03:12
azonenberg_laband it'll calculate how long to post-etch to do that03:12
Harold_parkerthats a sweet idea there man03:13
Harold_parkervery very sweet!03:13
berndjthat pic looks almost like some X-15 zipping through the stratosphere03:14
azonenberg_labberndj: You're not the first to make that comment03:14
azonenberg_labBut its just a little small ;)03:14
berndjdoes it matter if your probe is "wobbly"? i don't expect that sort of aspect ratio to give you a very stiff probe03:15
azonenberg_labberndj: Aspect ratio is somewhat variably by controlling etch rate03:15
azonenberg_labAnd usually it doesnt matter03:15
azonenberg_labYou dont push down too hard03:15
azonenberg_labhi ziper03:15
azonenberg_labberndj: You just gently push it down until it makes contact03:15
azonenberg_labIf you have coarse micropositioners like i do (designed for hitting bond pads, test points, and other >=5um targets) its a little tricky lol03:16
azonenberg_labGo down just a hair too far and the point bends :p03:16
azonenberg_labWhich is why i want to make duller points for those things03:16
azonenberg_labThe only reason i'd use such a sharp one is for an STM or similar non-contact application03:17
azonenberg_labSo... let's see, its 23:20 here03:19
azonenberg_labBut i have a couple more experiments to run before bedtime lol03:19
ziperazonenberg_lab, what are practical applications of this?03:21
azonenberg_labziper: making probes?03:23
azonenberg_labCheaper than buying commercial ones03:23
ziperno, the whole process03:23
azonenberg_labFun? Educational?03:23
azonenberg_labBecause you can03:23
ziperwell, I like electronics because I can make stuff that would be very very expensive otherwise03:24
azonenberg_labEventually i hope to get it to the point that any high school chemistry lab could have "build a MEMS accelerometer" as a project03:24
azonenberg_labCMOS is on the wishlist but will be a little harder to pull off03:24
azonenberg_labRough roadmap, comb drive by end of summer03:24
berndjhttp://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/pr.htm > Projects completed in recent years > Solid State Physics > Construction of a scanning tunneling microscope03:24
azonenberg_labbasic logic gates by middle of next year03:24
berndjit must've happened around 1998 or so03:24
azonenberg_laband a working 7400 or 4000 series chip by end of 201203:25
berndjthe one prof told us that they spent a whole lot of effort going high-tech on making the tip03:25
berndjin the end they got their best tips from just breaking a piece of wire03:25
berndji can't find any better documentation on that project though03:25
ziperazonenberg_lab, how mcuh did it cost for you to get this far?03:25
azonenberg_labAfter that, the next step will be to expand - stacked die MEMS+control circuit perhaps03:26
azonenberg_labOr go all-out on the IC front and make a 1:1 scale 400403:26
azonenberg_labziper: Personally i've spent maybe 4-5k on the entire lab (rough guess) but its hard to say03:26
azonenberg_labMost of the equipment was used03:26
ziperthats a lot03:26
azonenberg_labAnd a company i was doing consulting work for funded a lot of the general test equipment so i could make prototypes03:26
berndjbtw are you concerned at all about accidentally walking into any patent traps?03:26
azonenberg_labberndj: For a process this ancient? Not at all03:27
berndjwell, mems is <17 years old, no?03:27
azonenberg_labberndj: At this point I'm designing the process, not specific devices03:27
azonenberg_labWhen i start designing individual devices, maybe03:28
berndji thought you usanians were able to patent processes too, crazy folk over there03:28
azonenberg_labberndj: The point is, the processes i am using are all well established industry standards03:28
azonenberg_labthat have been around a lot longer than 17 years03:28
azonenberg_labThere may be a patent on, say, the photoresist i buy03:28
azonenberg_labBut who cares? That's the manufacturer's problem03:28
azonenberg_labI just use it03:28
Action: azonenberg_lab adds 5ml beakers to shopping list03:30
azonenberg_labi bought a case of ten, broke one03:31
azonenberg_labAnd i used several in my last experiment and they're sitting in the "dirty glassware" box waiting to be cleaned03:31
azonenberg_labSo i only have three left for what i'm about to do03:31
ziperwhy dont you clean them?03:39
azonenberg_labziper: I give them a quick rinse right after using but a full wash in detergent + triple rinse is saved for the end of the day's work03:40
Guest29878I haven't cleaned my glassware yet because I'm not sure how to remove the dye I'm working with03:40
azonenberg_labfuran: I'd try isopropanol, denatured alcohol, and acetone03:40
azonenberg_labprobably in that order03:40
azonenberg_labmost organic dyes will dissolve in one03:40
furanhmm, ok03:41
azonenberg_labWow, its getting hot in here... thermostat battery died, i have a hot plate going in the lab03:43
azonenberg_laband my server farm is running full-out doing some simulations lol03:43
furanwhat software do you use?03:43
azonenberg_labfuran: The sims are actually a chemical model using LAMMPS03:44
azonenberg_labconsulting project unrelated to this03:44
azonenberg_labSo in 6 mins this die will be exposed, then i can develop and try lift-off on it03:51
azonenberg_labI think i'll try doing really dilute hardmask (30% ish) and a couple of layers03:51
azonenberg_labTo make sure i get a nice low-stress coating03:51
azonenberg_labI want a relatively thin ~200nm layer at most03:53
azonenberg_labthe last one was much thicker, probably around 800nm, and cracked horribly03:53
azonenberg_labthe one before that was around 75 and too thin, didnt cover it all the way03:53
azonenberg_labbut i overcorrected03:54
azonenberg_labSo somewhere in betwen should work nicely03:54
azonenberg_labThree drops looks to give good results :)04:10
azonenberg_labThis is actually not bad resolution04:14
azonenberg_labGoing to run another die with the same settings while i wait for the oven to warm up04:14
azonenberg_labThat die was successful, now i am going to repeat the same process steps on several other dies04:26
azonenberg_labbut stop a little earlier each time04:26
azonenberg_labThen pop the whole sequence under the SEM next week04:26
CIA-67homecmos r94 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Today's lab notes. Mostly preparing specimens for SEM imaging.05:08
bart416We're having the mother of all thunderstorms any second now I fear :(05:10
azonenberg_labbart416: Why do you say that? Green sky?05:11
azonenberg_labAnd where?05:11
bart416And no green sky (yet)05:11
bart416But we just had 5-6mm hailstones05:12
bart416and it's a nasty one as well05:13
bart416No real visual warnings05:13
bart416Just at a sudden you saw two leaders appear and bam, hit something05:13
azonenberg_labi see05:14
bart416all while the sky is blue-ish05:14
azonenberg_labWe're expecting heavy rain tomorrow but nothing too bad05:14
bart416Well, for Europe this is pretty extreme weather05:14
azonenberg_labpossibly a small thunderstorm05:14
azonenberg_laband i see05:14
azonenberg_labIn the northeastern USA we get heavy t-storms pretty often05:14
azonenberg_labduring summer05:15
bart416Forecast includes possible small twisters05:15
azonenberg_labWe had tornado warnings here not long ago05:15
azonenberg_labThey tend to accompany severe thunderstorm warnings05:16
azonenberg_labactually i think its technically a watch, not a warning05:16
azonenberg_laba warning is issued when a tornado is actually sighted, a watch means conditions could develop into one05:16
bart416We don't have a warning system for those here05:16
bart416In whole of West-Europe you get maybe 1 or 2 tornados per year that are worth calling tornados05:16
bart416The worst the others do is remove some leaves from trees05:17
azonenberg_labI see, lol05:17
azonenberg_labIn central USA they're dangerously common05:18
azonenberg_labin the northeast, severe ones are rare but warnings occur frequently enough to be noticed05:18
bart416And we get maybe one storm with 12 bft. winds / year05:21
azonenberg_labthats what, hurricane level?05:21
azonenberg_labSounds a bit boring05:22
azonenberg_labAt least some mildly severe weather keeps things interesting05:22
azonenberg_labsome of my friends moved to california when they graduated for the "nice weatheR"05:22
azonenberg_labi stay in the northeast where we actually get a decent amount of snow, rain, thunderstorms, etc05:22
bart416Snow we don't get much of either05:22
bart416Though that might be related with me only living like 12km from the sea05:23
bart416Ever been in a downburst btw?05:25
R0b0t1Snow, rain, and thunderstorms are MAN weather.05:25
bart416Now downbursts, that's man weather05:26
bart416Our gate is solid cast iron framework05:26
bart416attached by huge hinges05:27
bart416Framework has a thin sheet metal on it05:27
bart416Downburst picked it up and threw it accross the street :|05:27
bart416You need to be with 4 people to even consider lifting those things normally...05:27
bart416The smith got a bit excited, lol05:28
azonenberg_labbart416: lol05:28
azonenberg_labR0b0t1: agreed05:28
bart416I wouldn't mind a bit more snow05:28
bart416Lets hope I get that scholarship, then I'll get more man weather :P05:28
azonenberg_labThough you have to be a bit crazy to live in a town that just got hit by a snowstorm05:29
azonenberg_laband, as your response, drive up north05:29
azonenberg_laband hike up a mountain to get even more snow :p05:29
bart416Looks about right05:30
bart416Is that you? :P05:30
azonenberg_labYep, last fall05:30
azonenberg_laband which scholarship? To a US school?05:30
bart416Japan, lol05:30
bart416That's the only one available for me at the moment05:30
azonenberg_labStill man weather, just a different kind05:30
bart416Haven't finished my bachelor's degree yet05:30
azonenberg_labAh, i see05:31
Action: azonenberg_lab got his a month ago05:31
bart416Something about having to get your ass through Chemistry I >_>05:31
bart416But she makes the exam harder every damned semester05:31
Action: azonenberg_lab never took chem 105:31
bart416It's mandatory05:31
azonenberg_labschool of science doesnt require it at RPI, though we have to take bio05:31
bart416But I might get a pass this time cause I should have passed all the other exams05:31
azonenberg_labEngineers have to take chem though05:31
Action: bart416 is an EE student, remember :P05:32
azonenberg_labyeah lol05:32
Action: azonenberg_lab realizes his radioshack brand duster spray contains a bitterant05:32
Action: azonenberg_lab wonders if said bitterant is present in high enough concentrations to be responsible for my yield troubles05:32
azonenberg_labI just assumed it was all volatiles05:32
azonenberg_labgonna have to get some lab-grade spray some time and see if that helps any05:33
R0b0t1Every dustoff has biterrant in it05:33
azonenberg_labif its cleanroom rated it shoudnt05:33
Action: R0b0t1 remembers this time where all his food tasted bitter and he didn't know why...05:33
azonenberg_labsame way lab grade ethylene glycol isnt fluorescent green etc05:33
R0b0t1Well, yeah.05:34
azonenberg_labI wouldnt mind if the stuff was purely gaseous05:34
R0b0t1Anything consumer, anyway05:34
azonenberg_labbut i think it condenses on things05:34
bart416azonenberg, ever considered using pure nitrogen? :P05:34
azonenberg_lab"Precision filtered to less than .2 microns."05:34
azonenberg_labbart416: Yes, if i could get a small tank i'd do just that05:34
azonenberg_labrigging an inert gas setup is on the todo list05:35
azonenberg_labsame as argon for sputtering05:35
azonenberg_labi want a short term solution05:35
bart416you could use a CO2 cartridge for an airsoft rifle maybe?05:35
bart416Those are rather cheap and shouldn't contain any dirt or dust05:35
azonenberg_labbart416: Maybe, but i want a regulator or at least something to drop the pressure a bit05:36
Action: azonenberg_lab wonders why duster sprays arent just N205:36
bart416Cause you weirdly enough can't get away with selling filtered air in cans >_>05:36
bart416Except if it's for diving or airsoft05:37
azonenberg_labbart416: Pure N2, as in inert05:37
azonenberg_labGonna have to pick up some of this my next order (i need more swabs and lint-free wipes some time too)05:38
azonenberg_labNo mention of any added denatonium benzoate or similar05:38
bart416while you're at it, pick up some ClF3 to put in small little aluminium containers and then hide it in people's pockets?05:39
azonenberg_labbart416: um, no thanks05:39
azonenberg_laba) they dont sell it05:39
azonenberg_labb) i dont want to get anywhere near it05:39
bart416c) does anybody actually know how to extinguish a fire with that stuff?05:40
bart416d) not really no05:40
bart416e) all lab safety manuals tell you to run away if something goes wrong with that05:40
azonenberg_labLol, pretty much05:41
azonenberg_laband hmm, radioshack msds doesnt list the bitterant either05:41
azonenberg_labgrr... why cant they include mass spec data or something as well as the hazardous ingredients list? :P05:42
azonenberg_labI want to know if there's something in there at 500 ppm that can mess up my project lol05:42
azonenberg_labBut that is something worth trying05:42
bart416THey're not required to mention it cause the percentage is too low :P05:42
azonenberg_labsquirt a lot of this on something and compare its properties to something not so squirted05:42
azonenberg_labsee if any residue is visible05:42
bart416Don't you have a mass spectrometer over there? :P05:43
azonenberg_labif its just an odorant like they add to gas its fine05:43
azonenberg_labbart416: At home? No05:43
azonenberg_labOn campus? I'd expect several05:43
azonenberg_labbut i dont know who runs them or how to use them05:43
bart416I'm going to guess the chemistry and physics department05:44
bart416Maybe electronics has one as well05:45
azonenberg_labI meant which faculty / labs05:45
azonenberg_labalso, i dont think its the problem, i blew it on a glass slide and saw no residue05:45
bart416Dunno, here chemical engineering had several05:45
azonenberg_labnow starting to suspect the stuff i saw on the thing was actually depositing from contaimination in the rinse bath05:46
azonenberg_labthat i was drying it from05:46
bart416Why did I spend so much time last year helping that asshat of a girl use one of those things for a stupid report she was writing >_>05:46
bart416Should have sabotaged it05:46
azonenberg_labWas she being nasty then too?05:47
R0b0t1Because she has breasts, bart416.05:47
azonenberg_labOr being extra nice so you'd help05:47
Action: azonenberg_lab knows a female bio major who owes him a big favor after a similar situation05:48
azonenberg_lab.docx format file got hosed the day before the paper was due05:48
azonenberg_laband of course i was the one she came to to fix it05:48
azonenberg_labThough i had a bit of an ulterior motive, i will freely admit05:49
azonenberg_labi was hoping she could get me time on one of the confocal fluorescence microscopes05:49
azonenberg_labWell, off to sleep for me - experiments today were largely successful but that doesnt mean i have any less work to do at my day job tmrw :P05:55
CIA-67homecmos r95 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Updated lab notes for remainder of today's experiments.05:59
bart416<azonenberg_lab> Or being extra nice so you'd help <-- that06:00
azonenberg_labbart416: lol06:00
azonenberg_labIts a survival skill any girl at an engineering school will learn06:00
bart416Though for me it was cause I actually liked her, not to get time on microscopes >_>06:00
azonenberg_labEspecially a good-looking one with below average talent06:00
bart416The thing is, she's really smart06:01
bart416Way smarter than me06:01
azonenberg_labAnd in my case, she was smart and somewhat crazy06:01
bart416But she still asked for my help :S06:01
azonenberg_labAnd not my type06:01
azonenberg_labShe tried to convince me to go to a *party*06:01
bart416I tried to convince her to go to places but she never wanted to :(06:01
azonenberg_labIf it was somebody i liked i'd invite her over the lab :P06:01
azonenberg_labSomebody who appreciates that i could get along with06:01
bart416And the one time I did convince her a stupid friend of hers ruins it for me06:02
azonenberg_labi see lol06:02
bart416But I doubt she ever actually liked me if I look at it afterwards06:02
azonenberg_labYeah, even at engineering schools there arent many people (of either gender) who are even close to my level of geekiness06:02
bart416But yeah, sort of hurts :(06:02
bart416I blend in fairly well :p06:02
Action: bart416 acts stupid most of the time06:03
bart416On IRC as well >_>06:03
azonenberg_labIf you add a "AND `gender`='f' AND `relstatus` = 'single'" to the query...06:03
azonenberg_labthe result set shrinks even further :p06:03
azonenberg_labsql query lol06:03
bart416what's the first part of the query :P06:04
azonenberg_labSELECT * FROM people WHERE geekiness > kGeeky*my_geekiness AND distance(location, my_location) < kDist06:04
azonenberg_labBut there are a few out there06:05
azonenberg_labI hear the bio department has a few female H. Sapiens in captivity being studied :P06:05
azonenberg_labIn all seriousness, a few can be found06:06
bart416Here as well06:07
azonenberg_labmy "not-gf" (close female friend but we arent dating) is one, last time we were hanging out the conversation turned to gravitational fields around spinning black holes pretty quickly lol06:07
bart416I'll admit I wouldn't hang out with you in real life :|06:07
azonenberg_labLol, thats probably true of most people here06:07
azonenberg_labeven the CIA bot ;)06:08
bart416If I go to a bar with some friends I like to talk about not so serious stuff06:08
azonenberg_labAnd thats one of the things that annoys me about normal people sometimes lol06:08
bart416And if it goes scientific it usually involves excessive amounts of explosives06:08
azonenberg_labI live the stuff06:08
bart416You have a general geek issue06:08
azonenberg_labWhen i'm not doing my day job or consulting for a nanotech startup06:08
bart416I only have the math issue06:08
azonenberg_labI'm doing chip fab06:09
azonenberg_labOr coding, or CPU design06:09
azonenberg_labOr reading papers that I think might be useful for my thesis work06:09
bart416You can do that06:09
azonenberg_labI think my brain is somewhat like a high speed electric motor06:10
azonenberg_labIt needs to be under load all the time06:10
azonenberg_labor bad things happen06:10
azonenberg_labIn the motor's case, it burns out the bearings06:10
bart416But in my case it usually goes like this: Get up, go for a run, breakfast, shower, study a bit or do something useful, play some computer game, lunch, do something (hopefully involving female attention), dinner, study/work a bit, watch some films or series, sleep06:11
azonenberg_labIn my case, i invent a load P06:11
bart416The only thing that so far managed to block math out of my head is sitting next to a person I like :|06:11
azonenberg_labEven that wont do it for me lol06:12
azonenberg_labWe end up talking math :P06:12
azonenberg_labThough not exclusively06:12
bart416My math problem is of the nature, give me anything and my head will solve it without me realising it06:12
azonenberg_labAnd my schedule...06:12
bart416But in doing so it seems to take resources away from other things06:12
bart416Bad bad resource manager!06:12
bart416Don't make me ctrl alt escape you!06:13
azonenberg_labGet up, quick breakfast+shower, walk a mile-ish up to campus, classes and research, lunch if i'm not too absorbed in my work to realize i'm hungry, homework if any, research/consulting work, quick dinner (often while reading papers or something, sometimes skipped in favor of a granola bar or something if i'm glued to my work), sleep whenever i realize what time it is06:14
bart416That doesn't sound all too healthy06:15
azonenberg_labI have a tendency to lose track of time and miss dinner or stay up way past when i should because i didnt notice how long i've been working :P06:15
azonenberg_labbart416: And i've tried the "relaxing" thing06:16
azonenberg_labJust doesnt work for me06:16
azonenberg_labafter i got my bachelor's degree i went down the shore with the family for a week06:16
azonenberg_labEnded up spending most of the afternoons designing masks and processes for this project06:16
azonenberg_labbecause my mind couldn't stand being idle06:16
bart416That's what you get female friends for o_O06:17
bart416They'll drag you along and force you to have fun anyway06:17
azonenberg_labbart416: Depends on the type06:17
bart416ok, the type I like :P06:17
azonenberg_labThe one i was talking about is a rabid MMO player :P06:17
bart416Know some of those but they're usually fat and ugly06:18
azonenberg_labShe's a bit above average but far from fat and distinctly cute lol06:18
azonenberg_labWas quite suprised to hear she was a diehard RPGer06:18
azonenberg_labThen again, first glance at me IRL would probably not give the impression of a guy with a chip foundry in his living room06:19
azonenberg_labespecially if i happen to be talking about some other equally technical but unrelated subject06:20
azonenberg_labOh, and the other geeky female friend i have? EE masters student doing her thesis work on sputtering06:21
azonenberg_laband if i can convince her to tear herself away from the fancy RF sputtering rig in her lab for a little while and help debug mine...06:22
azonenberg_labMaybe i can get working metal deposition by next year06:22
azonenberg_labthough first things first, i need an argon tank and a roughing pump06:22
azonenberg_labAnd before that, probably some sleep :P06:23
bart416'nite I guess06:25
berndjspinning black holes are creepy22:29
SolidRavenberndj, so are you :P22:30
berndjat least i'm uncharged22:30
azonenbergwoo, i'm getting on the SEM thursday22:53
--- Wed Jun 29 201100:00

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