#homecmos IRC log for Thursday, 2011-06-23

azonenberg_labhi B0101, sorry i missed you earlier01:20
azonenberg_labWhat were you saying about a logo?01:20
B0101I made a logo for my Chip Fab unit. I wanted you to tell me your opinion about my logo01:21
azonenberg_labsure (though i freely admit i suck at artistic stuff)01:22
B0101lol, give me a second01:22
azonenberg_labLol i gotta clean up after this experiment anyway, i'll be a minute or two01:22
B0101If you're back, heres the link: http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=428201:28
azonenberg_labOk, sec01:29
azonenberg_labSwitching to my other computer01:29
azonenbergAnimated? Not bad01:31
azonenbergA little flashy for my liking though01:31
azonenbergwhat's RRF stand for?01:31
azonenbergrm -rf? :P01:31
B0101I'll tell you what it stands for in a moment01:33
CIA-67homecmos r90 | trunk/lithography-tests/labnotes/azonenberg_labnotes.txt | Today's lab notes01:35
azonenbergSo today I made some experimental microprobes01:36
azonenberggetting dimensions off the pics now01:36
azonenbergThey're sharp, that much is obvious01:36
azonenbergLet's see - shank kis 406 microns / 233 pixels, which makes this image 1.742 microns per pixel01:37
azonenbergMiddle part is 52 pixels, which is 90 um01:37
azonenbergThen in the high res image the middle is 90 um / 491 pix = 183 nm/pixel01:38
azonenbergAnd the tip is somewhere under 13 pixels (2.3 um) across01:39
azonenbergThe image was a bit blurred though01:39
azonenbergso it might even be sharper01:39
azonenbergIn any case it's most definitely sharp enough to hit anything i can make on this process, with room to spare01:40
B0101going back... RRF stands for the first letter of my brother's friends01:42
azonenbergAh, i see01:42
azonenbergSo the bunch of you are your own little hackerspace?01:43
B0101nope. used to be good friends... but because of an argument... we broke off01:44
B0101RRF = Rusydi, Royce, Feng Qiang01:44
B0101I only joined in last year01:46
B0101They liked doing software01:46
azonenbergAnd you started pushing toward hardware?01:46
B0101It was Royce who started pushing towards hardware01:46
B0101I only joined to help out with my brother01:48
azonenbergi see01:48
B0101If you look at my logo, you might notice a zero detect circuit01:53
azonenbergI just see five test points01:53
B0101Did you see that if you go down the test points, you will see 4 lines?01:54
B0101thats the zero detect circuit01:55
azonenbergBut i see no interconnection01:55
B0101my logo was based on a portion of my brothers 4 bit relay computer01:56
azonenbergoh, i see01:56
B0101it was a very small portion of the whole circuit01:56
azonenbergI figured as much01:57
B0101do you know VHDL?02:09
azonenbergB0101: Not yet, i've been studying verilog though02:09
berndjVHDL reminds me too much of cobol02:19
azonenbergLol, to me it looks like Ada02:20
berndjazonenberg, does glade come with a simulator?02:20
azonenbergberndj: It's a pure low-level layout tool02:21
berndj(i know neither ada nor cobol, really, i'll take your word for it)02:21
azonenbergExtraction is done via python scripts (they have an example script for a hypothetical 150nm process)02:21
berndjany other layout tools you've tried?02:21
azonenbergLayoutEditor but it sucks02:21
B0101berndj: I tried programming in COBOL before... I can only say something02:22
berndji've tried half a handful and so far is the one that sucks least02:22
azonenbergso far glade is?02:22
azonenbergYeah, it has some segfaults but is otherwise pretty decent02:22
berndj*and so far magic is02:22
azonenbergOh, magic02:22
B0101berndj: Its a SIN to teach COBOL02:22
berndji don't mean to sound like i'm pushing it02:22
berndjB0101, not so long ago i knew a guy who was taking a cobol course02:23
azonenbergNo, i want inputs from a lot of people02:23
azonenbergPreferably people who have tried >1 tool02:23
azonenbergand can provide a reasonable argumetn as to why one is better than the other for a given purpose02:23
berndji've "tried" >1, but for a loose definition of "tried"02:24
azonenbergAsking people in industry will get you nowhere because most of them are using cadence or synopsys02:24
azonenbergwhich are nice but insanely expensive02:24
berndjmostly, it was, "started the program and couldn't figure out wtf to do then gave up"02:24
azonenbergLol yeah02:24
berndjwhich was the case with electric and that french thing whose name i forget02:24
azonenbergglade is the only one i found intuitive enough to actually use02:24
azonenbergalliance? Its a pain02:24
berndjyes, alliance02:25
berndjlooked potentially very pretty, but it gave me the same emotional experience vi did when i first met it02:25
berndj(i've since made friends with vi)02:25
berndjmagic is kinda old-school; the gui is more like a convenience, rather than the primary interface02:26
azonenbergGlade looks like it could be a really nice tool02:26
azonenbergIf only it didnt segfault so much :P02:26
berndjit's very strongly focused on its command line, but of course there are sensible gui action mappings02:26
berndjoh, glade is free as in beer but not speech?  that'd be why i never saw it / checked it out02:29
azonenbergberndj: Yes02:30
azonenbergSource would be nice02:30
azonenbergBut its a step in the right direction compared to, say, synopsys02:30
wolfspraulazonenberg: have you heard about the Fedora Electronics Lab Chitlesh Goorah was maintaining for a while?02:52
wolfspraulthe goal of that project was to bring together good IC design related free software02:52
wolfspraulhe has slowed down a bit since early this year, but the project is still out there02:52
wolfsprauloh right, he calls it 'Free Electronics Lab' now because he is moving away from Fedora dependence and wants to also support RedHat Linux I think02:55
wolfspraulhere's a list of software in FEL: http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/list.html02:57
wolfsprauland Chitlesh's blog http://chitlesh.wordpress.com/02:57
azonenbergwolfspraul: back03:22
azonenbergand nice03:22
azonenbergwolfspraul: Did you see my pics from today's lab session? Made a tungsten probe tip with a ~1500nm point radius03:49
azonenberghttp://colossus.cs.rpi.edu/~azonenberg/images/homecmos/2011-06-22/, 910 and later (909 and before were misfiled and actually were a day or two ago)03:49
wolfspraulI was planning to write a little eulogy on your beautiful pictures soon03:53
wolfspraulso I haven't seen the 06-22 ones yet, but I really do like the series03:53
azonenbergwolfspraul: Eulogy? Like a funeral speech?03:54
wolfspraulI downloaded them all with wget -r :-)03:54
wolfspraulah sorry wrong word probably :-)03:54
wolfspraulnot a native speaker03:54
azonenbergI figured as much03:54
wolfspraul"eulogy is a speech or writing in praise of a person or thing, especially one recently deceased or retired"03:55
wolfspraulI meant the first part...03:55
azonenbergI see03:55
wolfspraulno but seriously those pics are awesome03:55
azonenbergwell, any analysis or constructive criticism is welcome03:55
wolfspraulI like to open up a process and make it interesting for people to peek into your lab03:55
azonenbergYou have my lab notes, you have the photos03:55
azonenbergthe more interesting you can make it sound, the better03:55
azonenbergmore people interested = more people providing suggestions and maybe running experiments too03:56
wolfspraulI only have a small audience of maybe a few hundred people that really listen to me, but I will try to get my amazement at your work across to them...03:56
azonenbergno worries03:56
azonenbergJust dont expect the awesome to stop any time soon lol03:56
azonenbergI'll be popping these probes and some previous dies under a SEM in the near future to get some close-ups03:57
azonenbergand hopefully help diagnose my hardmask troubles a little better03:59
azonenberghi R0b0t106:02
R0b0t1I now idle here :306:02
R0b0t1I'd be happy to join in, but it would seem I first need a microscope (and some money for wafers).06:03
azonenbergAs of now i'm the only one doing fab, though B0101 plans to start up a lab soon06:03
azonenbergThe rest are just providing useful suggestions06:03
azonenbergI hope that will change eventually, we're trying to get more people involved06:03
lekernelexcellent pics indeed07:56
lekernelhttp://colossus.cs.rpi.edu/~azonenberg/images/homecmos/2011-06-22/S7300909.JPG this is great07:56
bart416that looks pretty good indeed08:01
azonenberglekernel: That one was showing the last few problems with my exposure system14:02
azonenbergNotice the uneven lighting14:02
azonenbergI think i will need a double exposure to get something etchable out of that14:03
azonenbergBut it's pretty close14:12
azonenbergThe issue i am having now is getting good yields with the hardmask14:12
azonenbergWet etching fails due to HF permeating my photoresist (longer hardbake may help there so I am not giving up entirely, I may also want to try another resist)14:13
azonenbergAnd liftoff is proving difficult to get good yield with14:13
azonenbergPartly because the solvent in the hardmask solution slowly attacks photoresist and therefore needs to be coated very quickly to prevent damage14:13
bart416<leeeeee> Google translated page direct link .. http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbomba-de-difusion-en-acero-inoxidable%26hl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&u=http://sites.google.com/site/skygaps/vacio/bomba-de-difusion-en-acero-inoxidable&usg=ALkJrhgSsKU-BZat30dCZq4YsnMl0XrtrQ20:55
bart416^just in ##electronics20:55
azonenbergI'd be using high vacuum oil, not mercury23:02
azonenbergBut it looks quite interesting23:03
R0b0t1J/w does ##electronics have some odd flags set on it? I can rarely ever join, although that might (for some reason) partially be my client.23:30
azonenbergYou have to be identified with nickserv before joining23:31
R0b0t1Yeah... I finally got in. Dunno what's up *shrug*23:31
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