| B0101 | Azonenberg: Did you fix your mask problem? | 13:25 |
|---|---|---|
| azonenberg | Lol, i keep missing B0101 | 18:27 |
| azonenberg | So I just got some tungsten wire | 18:42 |
| azonenberg | planning to make probe tips from it | 18:42 |
| azonenberg | Anybody have ideas on cutting it? | 18:43 |
| azonenberg | In any case, it will be sharpened by electrochemical etching | 19:22 |
| bart416 | uhm, how clean of an edge do you need? | 20:42 |
| bart416 | btw azonenberg, uploading that book | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | bart416: thx | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | And not very clean | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | i just tried metal shears | 20:43 |
| bart416 | Just use a wire cutter then :| | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | They'll be electropolished after | 20:43 |
| azonenberg | And i didnt want to use my normal wire cutters as they arnet meant for hard stuff | 20:44 |
| bart416 | Those knipex cutters are perfect for this sort of thing | 20:44 |
| bart416 | do you have cutting plates from a metal working machine like a lathe or mill? | 20:44 |
| bart416 | azonenberg, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27788352/Ingalls.ATM.book3.pdf | 20:51 |
| bart416 | Say when you finished so I can delete it again | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | bart416: I do not, but one of the labs at my school has a lathe and a mill | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | So i can use them for building instruments if need be | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | Several of each, actually | 20:51 |
| bart416 | Well, the cutting plate of most mills and lathes are made out of high speed steel | 20:51 |
| azonenberg | And file is downloaded | 20:52 |
| bart416 | Fairly strong material | 20:52 |
| bart416 | Anybody else want it? | 20:52 |
| bart416 | just don't use a new cutting plate for it though | 20:52 |
| bart416 | But HSS sort of contains tungsten | 20:53 |
| bart416 | + it's hardened | 20:53 |
| azonenberg | Ah | 20:53 |
| bart416 | So if you use an old cutting plate you should get through it just fine | 20:53 |
| azonenberg | The wire is only 400 microns diameter | 20:53 |
| azonenberg | My shears worked fine | 20:53 |
| bart416 | But heayh, should give a clean cut without damaging it | 20:54 |
| bart416 | *yeah | 20:54 |
| bart416 | They're designed to go through high carbon steel :P | 20:54 |
| bart416 | At the speed of a few meter / second | 20:55 |
| bart416 | So they're fairly resilient :P | 20:55 |
| azonenberg | lol | 20:55 |
| bart416 | My back is killing me | 21:06 |
| bart416 | And so are my shoulders and so are my arms and hands | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | Why? | 21:07 |
| bart416 | Exam analog circuit design! | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:07 |
| bart416 | Actually not cause of that | 21:07 |
| bart416 | Had to "remove" 16.2 square meter of tiles in our backyard | 21:07 |
| azonenberg | Oh lol | 21:08 |
| bart416 | issue, they're sort of in a concrete-ish substance | 21:08 |
| bart416 | 15-20 cm thick | 21:08 |
| bart416 | So had to use a heavy duty breaker | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | Reminds me of ripping out concrete at home | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | cracked landing midway up the front steps | 21:08 |
| bart416 | You know, Hilti, 1.8kW, 15kg | 21:08 |
| bart416 | That sort of thing | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | Lol, i see | 21:08 |
| bart416 | "Active Shock Reduction System" my ass :| | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | In our case we managed to yank the entire slab loose | 21:08 |
| azonenberg | Then blast it with a sledgehammer | 21:08 |
| bart416 | Heh, the tiles would splinter if you used a sledgehammer | 21:09 |
| azonenberg | and pour a new piece | 21:09 |
| bart416 | ceramics flying around at high speed = bad idea | 21:09 |
| azonenberg | This was 4+ inch concrete | 21:09 |
| azonenberg | And we put a heavy tarp over it to catch shrapnel | 21:09 |
| bart416 | Heh, our house used to be owned by a person that worked at a concrete plant | 21:09 |
| bart416 | So he had free access to concrete and other building materials... | 21:09 |
| bart416 | We noticed it when trying to demolish a small wall | 21:09 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 21:09 |
| bart416 | Ever saw a high end diamond cutting blade break due to the material it was encountering? | 21:10 |
| azonenberg | No, then again i've never used them | 21:10 |
| azonenberg | My only diamond cutters are for scoring silicon | 21:10 |
| bart416 | Well yeah, diamond blades on angle grinders = fun | 21:10 |
| bart416 | Goes through everything | 21:10 |
| bart416 | Except that wall >_> | 21:10 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 21:11 |
| bart416 | Eventually we use the breaker | 21:11 |
| bart416 | And then rammed it a few times with a friend's landrover defender >_> | 21:11 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 21:11 |
| azonenberg | Wow | 21:11 |
| bart416 | The wall came down in a single piece... | 21:11 |
| azonenberg | o_O | 21:11 |
| bart416 | We had to cut it up with a breaker | 21:11 |
| bart416 | And cut through the steel wires (yes tensioned concrete :| )... | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | this was a dinky little retaining wall | 21:12 |
| bart416 | We simply threw it in the back of a van and disposed it like that | 21:12 |
| bart416 | lol | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | made of prestressed reinforced concrete? | 21:12 |
| bart416 | Dunno what the guy did | 21:12 |
| bart416 | I think that wall was nuclear bunker worthy | 21:12 |
| azonenberg | Probably :P | 21:12 |
| bart416 | Never saw that much rebar in my life ever before | 21:13 |
| bart416 | We decided to just leave the walls the way they were after that | 21:13 |
| bart416 | Should have pictures of it here somewhere | 21:13 |
| bart416 | Oh one thing got through, a rotary hammer... | 21:14 |
| bart416 | But those go through anything really | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | C4? | 21:14 |
| bart416 | http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/to_kill_a_mockingbird.jpg | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | I dont usually do heavy industry type stuff, personally... | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | I prefer extreme precision at tiny scales | 21:14 |
| bart416 | Should have asked my father to bring a tank (he's an officer in the army :P ) | 21:14 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:15 |
| bart416 | Leopard tank vs Wall would have been funny | 21:15 |
| bart416 | Sad reality is that the wall had a high chance of winning | 21:15 |
| azonenberg | Well, the problem is that use of the main gun wouldnt be feasible given proximity to civilians and your house | 21:15 |
| bart416 | The thing with these tools is, they're actually fairly precise | 21:15 |
| azonenberg | I'll bet that 120mm APFSDS will go through that concrete no problem lol | 21:15 |
| bart416 | Uhm, the wall was 40 cm thick... | 21:16 |
| bart416 | Reinforced tensioned concrete... | 21:16 |
| bart416 | With a sand layer | 21:16 |
| azonenberg | 40cm? Shoudlnt be that bad *looks up penetration stats* | 21:16 |
| bart416 | 20cm of that would have been steel though... | 21:16 |
| bart416 | And my father wants to break down a shed the guy built (also in concrete) :| | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | Quick googling suggests that current russian APFSDS rounds have penetration equivalent to 65cm of rolled homogeneous steel armor | 21:17 |
| bart416 | I'm going to go and ask for a crane + wrecking ball | 21:17 |
| azonenberg | I dont know how much easier/harder concrete is, but my guess is you'd get most of the way through if not all the way | 21:18 |
| bart416 | Probably | 21:18 |
| bart416 | But doubt there'd be much damage after the wall considering how thick it is | 21:18 |
| azonenberg | Yeah, you'd be punching a hole through | 21:18 |
| bart416 | but keep in mind this wasn't even a support wall of the house... | 21:18 |
| azonenberg | APFSDS does most of its damage from pyrophoricity on the inside | 21:18 |
| azonenberg | Non-explosive | 21:19 |
| bart416 | I wonder what the support walls look like | 21:19 |
| bart416 | Should borrow an ultrasound from college lab for a day :P | 21:19 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:19 |
| azonenberg | ground penetrating radar? | 21:19 |
| bart416 | dunno, don't have access to that | 21:20 |
| bart416 | + an ultrasound I actually know how to use :P | 21:20 |
| bart416 | ground penetrating radar I do not | 21:20 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:20 |
| bart416 | Too bad you can't just take a piece of a wall out and use a MRI scanner, those are horribly easy to control o_O | 21:21 |
| bart416 | Really it's a joke with the new software | 21:21 |
| bart416 | A 5 year old could do it | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | I dont think mri would work well on concrete anyway | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | And i'm not too familiar with any penetrating imaging methods | 21:21 |
| bart416 | I'm more worried about the steel inside of it :P | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | I mostly do optical and some electron microscopy | 21:21 |
| azonenberg | Ah, forgot it had rebar | 21:22 |
| azonenberg | And the guy who trained me on the SEM in our cleanroom says that he's taught 14-year-olds how to use similar models lol | 21:22 |
| bart416 | If a small none support wall already has rebar... | 21:22 |
| bart416 | most of these devices aren't really hard | 21:22 |
| bart416 | Anybody can work with a MRI, just don't bring anything magnetic close to it and you'll be fine | 21:22 |
| azonenberg | lol | 21:23 |
| bart416 | Well, a modern one at least | 21:23 |
| bart416 | body part, patient position on table (depending on how the table is arranged really), algorithm (you can sometimes choose), single frames, 3D, record over time, ... | 21:24 |
| bart416 | All nice options in the menus, lol | 21:24 |
| bart416 | And afterwards it'll ask where to send it if it hasn't been pre configured | 21:24 |
| berndj | bart416, you into amateur telescopes or why're you pasting the ingalls link? | 21:24 |
| azonenberg | nice | 21:24 |
| bart416 | Even contains the nice option to burn one of those annoying CDs with those crappy viewers | 21:24 |
| azonenberg | berndj: They have a part on sputtering | 21:25 |
| bart416 | Well, they mention some articles about it | 21:25 |
| bart416 | + also about other methods of coating | 21:25 |
| bart416 | And vacuum systems in general | 21:25 |
| bart416 | And I sort of am actually | 21:25 |
| bart416 | But I bought my telescope | 21:25 |
| bart416 | But the mirror has its best time :( | 21:26 |
| bart416 | You into amateur telescopes berndj ? | 21:27 |
| Action: azonenberg has done a decent amount of astro stuff but never built his own scope | 21:27 | |
| bart416 | I'm probably going to sell mine | 21:27 |
| bart416 | Too much light polution anyway | 21:27 |
| bart416 | When I move to a desolated part of Vietnam in about 30-40 years I'll pick it up again | 21:28 |
| berndj | yes, i am into amateur telescopes | 21:28 |
| berndj | just haven't worked on mine for a few months | 21:28 |
| bart416 | The cost is prohibitive sadly | 21:28 |
| berndj | i don't recall any mention of sputtering, but then again book 3 is the one i don't have | 21:28 |
| bart416 | Want me to upload it again? | 21:29 |
| berndj | what i did see was evaporation | 21:29 |
| bart416 | That's also covered | 21:29 |
| berndj | nah, it's okay | 21:29 |
| berndj | you might've had better luck with a thermal lance vs that wall | 21:29 |
| azonenberg | I was actually gonna suggest that lol | 21:29 |
| bart416 | berndj, next time I'm cutting to the rebar and I'm pulling out a plasma cutter | 21:30 |
| bart416 | Lets see how it likes that >_> | 21:30 |
| berndj | oh, azonenberg, what was that about cutting tungsten wire? for what purpose? | 21:30 |
| bart416 | he wants to make probes | 21:30 |
| berndj | that desktop STM project i may have mentioned (some dude at uni the year before me built one) had probes made from incandescent bulb filaments just pulled apart | 21:31 |
| azonenberg | berndj: I have two six-foot pieces of 400 micron tungsten wire from amazon | 21:31 |
| azonenberg | only a few dollars each | 21:31 |
| bart416 | Heh, STM is on my to do list | 21:31 |
| berndj | turns out you don't need great precision in forming the tip - almost any chunk of tungsten will have *some* part of it that forms an adequate tip | 21:31 |
| bart416 | STMs are fairly easy | 21:31 |
| azonenberg | I plan to use the STM technique (electrochemical etching) to sharpen them | 21:31 |
| azonenberg | Building a STM and later a SEM is on my todo list too | 21:32 |
| azonenberg | But i need more workbench space | 21:32 |
| berndj | oh, for probing a chip? | 21:32 |
| azonenberg | my lab is growing :P | 21:32 |
| azonenberg | berndj: Yes | 21:32 |
| bart416 | What you really need is a good electron microscope so you can see the current flow in future prototypes :P | 21:32 |
| azonenberg | I have a wentworth labs probing station that i got used on ebay and am in the process of fixing up (needs some vacuum hoses replaced and a good cleaning but is otherwise in decnet shape) | 21:32 |
| berndj | but not an actual STM? | 21:32 |
| azonenberg | And an actual STM would be nice too | 21:32 |
| azonenberg | But is a bit further out | 21:33 |
| bart416 | The best part is that you can just take apart a buzzer to get the piezo electrode | 21:33 |
| bart416 | But don't have a scope so it's hard to build this sort of thing anyway | 21:34 |
| bart416 | Bah | 21:34 |
| bart416 | So instead it's going to be the more insane project | 21:36 |
| bart416 | Try to put an ARM Cortex A8 on a double sided board | 21:36 |
| azonenberg | Lol | 21:36 |
| azonenberg | Have fun | 21:37 |
| Action: azonenberg is equally insane but wants to do 4 layers on a xilinx BGA fpga | 21:37 | |
| bart416 | Heh | 21:37 |
| bart416 | Dunno | 21:37 |
| bart416 | How much pins is it | 21:37 |
| bart416 | Mine is 400 or 500 or something like that | 21:37 |
| bart416 | Also where do you get 4 layers? | 21:38 |
| azonenberg | bart416: ExpressPCB is what i've been using but i'm leaving | 21:45 |
| azonenberg | Probably 4pcb 6 layer is what i'll end up using | 21:45 |
| bart416 | o_O | 21:47 |
| bart416 | That costs close to $200... | 21:47 |
| bart416 | My total budget for my entire project is less than that | 21:47 |
| azonenberg | I'm not paying for it :P | 21:49 |
| azonenberg | My advisor will be | 21:49 |
| bart416 | If you can get a good powerplane + ground plane it's a lot easier | 21:52 |
| azonenberg | I need >1 power plane lol | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | at least a 2.5 and an 1.2v, maybe a 3.3 as well | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | plus ground | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | then two to three signal layers | 21:53 |
| azonenberg | it will end up being a six or eight layer board i think | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | XC6SLX75 is the plan | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | plus some sdram, flash, and other fun stuff | 21:54 |
| azonenberg | and maybe an MCU for stuff i dont want to waste fpga gates on | 21:54 |
| bart416 | It's the same league | 21:55 |
| bart416 | Difference is, I'll have to do it at home with a toaster oven >_> | 21:56 |
| Action: azonenberg will be having the board fabbed professionally but hopes to assemble it in a toaster oven here | 21:56 | |
| azonenberg | 256-FTBGA package lol | 21:56 |
| bart416 | oh that's easy :| | 21:56 |
| azonenberg | Its 1mm pitch | 21:56 |
| azonenberg | Shouldnt be nearly as bad as the 0.8 i was thinking of doing earlier | 21:57 |
| bart416 | AM3715CBP100 is what I'm doing >_> | 21:57 |
| azonenberg | 515 FCBGA? | 21:57 |
| azonenberg | Have fun | 21:58 |
| azonenberg | whats the pitch on that monster | 21:58 |
| bart416 | Dunno | 21:58 |
| bart416 | Haven't dared to look yet | 21:58 |
| bart416 | http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/am3715.pdf is the datasheet | 21:59 |
| azonenberg_lab | Time to have some fun | 23:40 |
| azonenberg_lab | Tungsten probe making | 23:40 |
| --- Thu Jun 23 2011 | 00:00 | |
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